Virgin Mary

Killing the feminine: Misogyny in Christianity

She can show you the world we come from. There’s no green there. They killed their Mother, and they’re gonna do the same thing here.” From the movie, Avatar.

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? What happened to their mother? They killed their mother and now she is a ghost.” Executive and speaker Jeffrey Armstrong.

At the heart of the civilizing mission and the White man’s burden are the prejudices coming from Christian theology.  Only Christians can be saved, all others are in the grip of Satan.

Amy Carmichel, an early 20th century missionary to India, is quoted here in “Converting Women: Gender and Protestant Christianity in Colonial South India.”

Misogynytext

It is the characterizing of others as Satanic that lead to the unspeakable crimes of Christianity, including, by one count, the extermination of nearly one hundred million natives in the Americas. These prejudices are alive and well and at the heart of exclusive Christianity and its missionary activities worldwide.

Though liberal Western society is shown up in opposition to right wing Christianity, the civilizing mission persists in the liberal West with some of the terminology changed.  Orientalist stereotypes of Hindus turn their Satanic nature into descriptions of culture-blame. Nothing is as important as “saving their women.” I had written earlier about the disproportionate coverage of rapes in India in Western media and how films and websites use their alleged “plight” as a fund-raising tool for NGO’s and evangelical missions.

The Indian elite has been schooled into the idea of Christianity as a benign force.  The white man’s burden has become the brown coconut’s burden. So what if all the people convert? Won’t we become advanced? As per the propaganda film, Veil of Tears, won’t conversion into Christianity rescue the poor Indian women?

As it turns out, not quite.  As nationmaster.com collates in a helpful chart, the top 6 countries by rape rate are all majority Christian.

Misogynygraph

Far from saving our souls or “rescuing” Indian women, Christian conversion will have precisely the opposite effect, an increased rate of rape.  This may explain the dramatic difference between the US and Canada as well. The stridently Christian evangelical US has nearly 16 times the rape rate of its northern neighbor.  As someone who has lived and studied in the US, I have been appalled at locker room and dorm talk that looks at women merely as sex-objects, as “whores and bitches”, a phenomena that is documented in the book “Boys Will Be Boys.” This is quite different from my experience of college talk about girls among boys in India, at least 20 or so years ago when I studied there, before the latest download of American modernity.

The white man’s burden has become the brown coconut’s burden.

Why does Christianity lead to increased rape? Here are some preliminary ideas.

Firstly a Christian convert is cut of from their roots. This decreases the mitigating effect of the community and of natural law or dharma. Secondly, Christianity is deeply patriarchal and misogynistic, as has been documented by American feminist writers.  Of course, with Christianity being a $200 billion+ industry, new apologetics are quickly being made to put a woman-friendly niqab on Christianity.  While Indian texts like the Manusmriti have been criticized for misogynistic passages, many of the Indian commentators are simply unaware of the deep theological basis of misogyny in Christianity. After, all entire mankind is cursed because of the sin of Eve, as influential Church theologians over the years made clear.

“In pain shall you bring forth children, woman, and you shall turn to your husband and he shall rule over you. And do you not know that you are Eve? God’s sentence hangs still over all your sex and His punishment weighs down upon you. You are the devil’s gateway; you are she who first violated the forbidden tree and broke the law of God.” Tertullian, the “father of Latin Christianity” 

Like any good theologian, he is getting this from the Good Book, of course, in a passage that ironically, showed up in a recent Anglican Church proceedings to finally allow women bishops.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

In case this is considered, only a facet of pre-modern Christianity, here are modern quotes from Southern Baptists, among the most powerful evangelical Churches in the world, quite active in India to save Indian women and men.

  • A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. —Official statement of Southern Baptist Convention, summer 1998 (15.7 million members)
  • The feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. —Pat Robertson, Southern Baptist leader (1930–)

These quotes and attitudes go on an on, through Christian theology. It would run into hundreds of pages. In the Catholic Church, the Pope, literally, the father is the ultimate patriarch and priests held power over nuns, leading to unimaginable abuse.  But this misogyny exists at a deeper level. As former Catholic, Jeffrey Armstrong, said in a conference,  referring to the Christian trinity “The father, the son and the holy ghost! What happened to their mother? They killed the mother and she is now a ghost.”  Armstrong was only half-joking. Christianity is the ultimate triumph of the patriarchy over nature-based traditions that revered the divine as feminine. The Catholic Church carried out the witch hunts in Europe killing hundreds and thousands of women to exterminate women healers and spiritual women who were alternate sources of spiritual nurture. The same messages of the powerful women as the evil witch and the good girl as the damsel in distress are projected in Disneyfied modernity.

The other factor for a high degree of rapes in Christian society is the widespread institutional abuse of children by the Christian priesthood. This was so widespread that, according to a New York Times report,  that it took place in every single Catholic diocese in America. Abused children often grow to be abusers themselves, creating a society of violence towards women and children. While Catholic priests have been held to account for many countries, there has almost been no prosecution in India despite a large number of Catholic priests having access to vulnerable children in schools and churches.

After, all entire mankind is cursed because of the sin of Eve.

Even within the United States, Alaska has the highest rates of rape, 250% the national average, with a child sexual assault rate 600% of the national average.  Like in other places, the native Alaskans were Christianized “for their own good”, the same gifts that the evangelicals are bringing to India in their conversion mission.  As The Atlantic notes,  “many Native Alaskan children were shipped off to boarding schools—some as young as 6 years old—and many were beaten, sexually abused, and urged to forget their languages and cultures.”  Suits have been filed “against Catholic priests and church workers for molesting almost an entire generation of Alaska Native children.”  It is not surprising that this cycle of abuse perpetuates in Alaska as it does in other Christian societies.

Another reason offered for the high rape of rates is the remoteness of Alaskan localities and the difficulty of law enforcement.  As I pointed out in my article on dharma and law, the US has 20 times the incarceration rate (people in prison) of India, yet still has a higher homicide rate. It also has a much higher number of police per capita. It is a society governed by law. When law enforcement decreases, crime skyrockets. In book-based normative morality conscience atrophies.  People are kept in line by fear of the law.  In a society governed by dharma, such as India, we need to be more concerned about the atrophy of dharma.

The native tribes of Alaska have been Christianized and lost touch with their traditions and cultures that maintained their natural harmony.  In such a rootless condition, crime naturally rises. But it will not be difficult to find subtly racist analysis of the Alaskan problem alluding to the high percentage of native population as justification for high crime rather than the destruction of their traditions due to Christianization.  Since God and His Son are perfect, Church-driven scholarship will constantly place the blame on native cultures and “man’s sinful nature” for any problems rather than its own destructive theology.

Alaska TribeThis phenomenon is found in India as well, in places like Nagaland, which has been completely Christianized via unchecked conversions by American Baptists, now having a 90% Christian population. With the destruction of native traditions, alcoholism and drug abuse are rampant. Naturally,  Baptist theologians have the cure.  In a multi-part article published in the Eastern mirror, the Christian controlled Nagaland newspaper, the find the answer in more Christianity, by increasing the cultivation of Christian ethics. At the same time Naga people are constantly reinforced by stories of their ancestors’ barbaric headhunting behavior before the arrival of Christianity to save them.

If India were to be completely Christianized, as is the intent of the heavily funded conversion war being waged against it, there is little doubt that the rate rape would skyrocket   All through this process, native culture would continue to be blamed for this crime, the problem always being that the people were not Christian enough.  Since no one can ever be adequately Christian, this is an endlessly applicable explanation.  Colonial consciousness, internalized by the Indian English-speaking liberal already secularizes the descriptions given by missionaries of Hindus being satanic and immoral into “root causes” of culture-blame for any criminal acts.

Hinduism is the biggest danger to Christianity as the last of the major earth-bound nature traditions. While patriarchal elements certainly crept into Hindu society, in contrast to Christianity it values the divine feminine. Since this feminine is a threat for the ultimate domination of the patriarchal Church, it becomes even more necessary to prove that Indian culture is women-oppressing “despite goddess worship”. This theme is repeatedly found in Hinduism and South Asian scholarship emanating from the West, and dutifully reproduced and aped by Indian “liberals”. (Movements like Vandana Shiva’s eco-feminism being notable exceptions).  In attacking Hinduism, Indian feminists unwittingly push the patriarchal agenda of the dominance of exclusive male-God religions aiming for the final extinction of the divine feminine.

Hinduism is the biggest danger to Christianity as the last of the major earth-bound nature traditions.

Thus the necessity of highlighting Indian rapes comes from two important and well-funded imperatives. The first is that Hinduism is “oppressive of women” and Christianity, or its dual in the White Man’s civilizing burden, Western liberalism, must rescue these women.  Secondly, Hinduism is a theological challenge and poses a great danger in attracting an increasing interest from Western women finding their own power through it, exemplified by the Yoga movement.

Hinduism in the form of the yoga movement is extremely popular among Western women. Nearly 80% of yoga practitioners in the US are women.  Many of these have taken in a deeper way to Hindu spirituality with its empowerment of the divine feminine. The book and movie “Eat, Pray, Love” further fuelled this movement in recent times, with popular actress Julia Roberts also declaring her conversion to Hinduism.  This is extremely threatening to Christianity.  People don’t get that, unlike Hinduism, Christianity is largely an institutionalized religion and a very organized force. When a threat like this is perceived, systematic institutional efforts and strategies are set into motion to counter it. I have various unconfirmed reports of journalists being specifically tasked to source rape stories from India that are them amplified in world media. This serves the dual purpose of culture-blame of Hinduism and painting India as an unsafe place for Western woman tourists inclined to undertake the “Eat, Pray, Love” journey into Hinduism. Unfortunately many deracinated Indian “liberals”, cut off from Hindu traditions are useful idiots, though some are also likely paid sepoys in this conversion war.

As Maria Wirth, a German native who grew up Christian, points out,  “…the exclusive focus by the world media on “rapes in India’ is not justified and raises suspicion of an agenda behind it. Articles appeared now, often written by Indians with Hindu names, that Indian (read Hindu) culture is to be blamed for the rapes, because it does not consider women as ‘autonomous entities’, which probably means that they can’t do what they want. The Washington Post proclaimed that sexual violence was endemic in India. The Reuters Trust Law group named India one of the worst countries in the world for women. A Harvard committee crafted strategies for ‘adolescent education’ to change the Indian mindset about gender. It was getting a bit much. Don’t westerners look at their own record – past and present – and compare it with that of India? Are they not ashamed?

YOgaSpeaking of shame, while passages from the Manusmriti relating to marriage among  varnas are often quoted as examples of misogyny, it is important to remember its broadest injunction, as reminded to me by Rohini Bakshi.

3.56. The society that provides respect and dignity to women flourishes with nobility and prosperity. And a society that does not put women on such a high place has to face miseries and failures regardless of whatever noble deeds they perform otherwise.

We must not be in denial about real problems that exist in our society that impact women and men. But it is important to build on our own strong traditions of respect for women and the feminine, including have the courage to reform and change where needed.

I was in Toronto  some months after the gruesome Delhi rape. I met a Canadian film-maker who had gone to Delhi to make a documentary on sexual violence against women.  She recalled that she was amazed at the level of protest and people coming out onto the streets for the Nirbhaya rape case.  She said she wished people in the West cared as much for the rampant incidents of violence against women in their countries. Respect for women has been part of Indian traditions, and it also must be one reason we are aghast at the rising rapes, despite the rape-rate in India being among the lowest. We need to have a rational discussion of rape-prevention in India, including safety measures in a modernizing society, while being careful of sensationalism, fed and exploited by those with an agenda inimical to us.

While we need to strive for reform within India, we most also be aware of not becoming tools in those that would seek to destroy us. Christian evangelism comes from a deeply wounded culture. Every Christian carries the latent memory and karma of their own uprooting and the burden of violence inflicted on them in Christianity’s imperial expansion.  Before Europe colonized others, it was itself colonized by Christianity, its traditions destroyed and its wise strong women burnt at the stake as witches. This civilization cannot but help inflict violence on others. While we protect ourselves, we must also help them see light. This has been the role of our gurus bringing yoga and Indian spiritual wisdom to the West for decades, without carrying the agenda of religious conversion, to help heal the Christian West before it destroys itself and others.  To help restore their mother, we must first connect to our own mother traditions and restore the balance of feminine power.

Sankrant Sanu is an entrepreneur, author and researcher based in Seattle and Gurgaon. His essays in the book “Invading the Sacred” contested Western academic writing on Hinduism. He is a graduate of IIT Kanpur and the University of Texas and holds six technology patents. His latest book is “The English Medium Myth.” He blogs at sankrant.org .
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  • MT
  • prashants5 .

    I am so baffled with so many ignorance coming out from MT and Raman Krishnan in some previous postings.

    @Raman Krishnan: Your ignroance about world’s oldest civilzation and history is not worth of any debate or Reply

    @MT
    While christianity could be about accepting the truth of the Gospel, Hinduism is about personal direct experience with the Cosmos ( and sometime through right Gurus) and hence direct interecation with God. There is nothing to accept or reject here any 3rd Party’s experience or story. There is no mandatory middle-man such as Son of God Jesus or prophet here. Parampara and Pride are not part of achieving Moksha. You can not call Moksha as Salvation. Moksha is simply non-translatable to any Non-Hindu philosophy. While Judeo-Christianity is history centrism, Hindusm is far beyond that.

    Bible is a story books which you have to accept it as “Truth” where as in Hinduism you have to directly experience God optionally following Veda and Upanishads. Dharmic tradition in Hinduism is sharp contrary to Judeo-Christian emphasis on “Salvation from sin”. That is why, Adhyatma Vidya is what very unique to Hindu Philosophy. Please don’t read the Textual translation of the Vedas and other ancient Indian texst by the so called White Masters such as Giffins and Max-mullers who have demonstrated their ignorance and moronization in their translation about Hindu Philosophy. Read some authentic sources and research work.

    “Being Different” by Rajiv Malhotra is one of the best book that has compared one-one, many facets and aspects of Hinduism and Judeo-Christianity. For example Dharma is not same is Religion, Shakti is not Energy, Itihas is not the same as History. Similarly the digestion of Yoga into “Christian Yoga” are not the same. And “Surya Namaskar” is not same as “Son Salutation” ( here son means Son of God).

    The Adam-Eve progeny are born Sinner vs God is Father and Mary has a virgin Birth hence no sex and so no sin transmitted to Jesus etc. According to Christianity, Sin is a Sexually Transmitted Disease. Hence all the descendant of Adam-Eve are considered Sinners.

    In Hinduism the “Hindu Good News” is : We are born Divine ( Sat-Chit-Anand ), where as Christianity Good news is otherwise.

  • Sree Charan R

    When human beings do not understand truth,they try to misinterpret reality as their own “facts” and arrogantly consider it as “knowledge”, without any honest research.They will be initially confident,but under the deep ocean, they are hypocritical in nature.

  • g.m

    well done. Thanks.

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  • Jinto Mathew Thomas

    Christ says that His Kingdom was not of this world, the problem is if the author or his followers had read the Bible and understood it’s true message including the totally ignorant and wrong views about Bible and Christianity they wouldn’t hold such a narrow views about it. Christ always despised and challenged the hypocritical rulers who relied on laws that were man made. Remember America or any other nation in this world is not of Christ but man made.Even though there are numerous social movements heralded by believers like abolishing the slave trade, fighting against racism, equality etc. The church and state was always meant to be separate, the moment when man got both together the deviation from true Christian doctrines occurred as early as Rome when it declared Christianity as it’s state religion before 300 AD. So equating America or any Western Nations with Christian doctrines is definitely beginning ur argument on a faulty premise, very similar to attributing India and all its social evils to Hinduism. I would like to challenge this author to an open debate about Hinduism and Christianity . If he ever has the courage please reply so that we could arrange one.

    • g.m

      Mr.Jinto Mathew Thomas,
      Why wait for an open debate, we all should be happy to discuss this here. Carry on. You have clearly distinguished Christ form Bible, Christianity
      and Church. The issue is, can we remove Slavery, Church (with money and international power) and Mindless conversion, from Christianity? Nobody has a problem if we are taught on Christianity and Bible, but if Church and Pastors are calling others sinners, join us your sin will be washed otherwise you will land in Hell, Hinduism is evil worship etc, will created definite social tension and hatred. The author of this article is forced to write this because of the Documentary India’s Daughter, intended and propagating Hate on India and its culture. Please clarify is there any sense in calling entire Indians and culture as rapists? Why not, even one church in India came out and protested it loud and clear? Is it correct for Christian countries/ organisations abroad deny admission to students citing this? Is it not ironical the Churches cry for human-right and spoil the image of the country when they have given full right and legal remedy with- in the system, especially when they do nothing in USA and U.K about it and get lot of money from them? Is it correct for Christian organization abroad to sponsor and get people to testify against their own county when they avail all the benefit of affirmative action and full legal protection like others in their own county?. Here the issue is not how women treated in Hindu scripts, No Hindu claims we treated women exemplary well. If it is a study then it has to be comparative and will have to be ready for reactions.We are proud that Hinduism is much better in treating Women, Environment and Human- right.

      • Jinto Mathew Thomas

        So basically u seem to be pinning all the blame on churches for all the social evils our country has, also all the evils a western Nations have committed. The problem with that is we as beleivers we are ready to introspect and understand but you just don’t want to.

        Why would u expect anyone who has a little civility to support the lawyers and the rapists in their mindset. The whole documentary wasn’t about India’s rape culture. it was an expose of the mindset of the lawyers and the rapists.

        Now about religion, it’s well established fact that Hinduism is way of life steeped in traditional, ritualistic and is of idolatry where as Christianity is monotheistic religion. U r targeting Christians because they enjoy a majority in West and here in India they don’t.. Wow, isn’t ur philosophy very close to Nazi Hitler’s.?

        I can understand ur problem when Hinduism with all its Casteism, inequality and UNTOUCHABILITY it’s very difficult to defend. So heap all ur problems ON a religion that has done no fault but fight for injustice, inequality and the rest of social evils. Buddy open ur eyes. Yes u will be sinful till u accept Jesus as your saviour and u have no reconciliation to Father in heaven.

        What’s painful for u the way we propagate the religion n u are losing followers in HINDUISM . I CAN understand that and I am not ready to apologize for it.Its pretty sad that u have such narrow views and even has the audacity to defend the abhorable mindset of those sadists just because they belong to India. Probably u r affected because even those people were Hindus and none of them had anything to do with Christianity.

        See the problem with the article is that the author is a liar,because he grossly misrepresenting the Christian doctrines because of his hatred of Christians and the church. So u just don’t attain Moksha with lying.

        • g.m

          Your reply is adequately enough to prove my
          statement. Having allowed you so much liberty on Hinduism you need to know and
          help yourself to get out of the false belief that a hanging dead body is not
          going to get you out of all the sins you committed and planned to commit ,It is
          not going to work and never worked. Your loyalty to Hitler and Nazis will not
          allow you to be slave-masters any more. It is time to pay for the fraud committed
          on humanity.

          • Jinto Mathew Thomas

            looks like u have nothing to say about these facts.So u r threatening me personally now.. lol.. alas if u understand that I have nothing to fear.

            U calling me a Nazi or Hitler don’t change the reality that u r still defending the rapists and the lawyers mindset. I would equate that to a pretty medieval mindset where I can say that u r carrying a baggage from the Dark ages.

            Hope Our Father in heaven may forgive u for blasphemous rant and understand the enormity of evil in human hearts.

          • You repeat the doctrinal disputes and positions of Christian theology as if they mean something.

            ” I am justified by faith not by works or the pride in my flesh. I live because Christ died for me and I am confident that He will help me to keep me away from sinful ways.”

            Jesus is “Son of God” was decided in a council in Nicaea constituted by the Roman emperor Constantine, who was not even Christian. Christianity has been a way to propagate Empire. Early Christians believed in re-incarnation, for instance, but it was taken out of Church doctrine since it is less conducive to controlling people than an exclusive “savior.” Fear is the key.

            Yes, there was Protestant reform but that was mainly rebellion against Church authority. Doctrinally it did not deviate much from the Nicene Creed.

            The story of Mr. God sacrificing his only Son as a human blood sacrifice to atone for mankind’s sin is primitive beyond belief. Theologians have acknowledged it is absurd. Tertullian goes far enough to say “It is absurd. Therefore I believe.”

            That you may feel some comfort or personal experience of a higher power via your Jesus concept is fine. Someone else may feel the same relationship with Rama, what makes your claim your experience above theirs. Unless you discard Christianity’s exclusive dogma’s and Nicene creed, you are a participant in the theology that has led to genocides for centuries.

          • MT

            Oh so u haven’t read Anti Nicene Fathers yet. Theology doesn’t exhort you to kill, only peple who distort and deviate from Bible killed. Theology is after all a study, and the positions that I have stated is when I was asked. I challenge u to take any incident in the New Testament where Christ or his disciples asked their followers to kill. You can’t blame anything on Christ nor his apostles. Even when u read Early Church Father’s they believed in Bible and their actions were compliant to the theology we know. But as soon as Rome took over the church, power hungry bishops, Popes and Kings with greed and all their lusts destroyed purity and distorted the church defeating from Christian doctrines.

            The fact is be it Tertullian during Nicene era or there r numerous authors that talk about Christ his crucifixion and resurrection during 300 AD and before that. . Hence I can validate my belief thru my experiences, historical and archeological evidences. That’s more than enough to sustain my faith. I do know Hinduism pretty much lacks these basic requirements to fulfill a person’s faith.

            But again what I couldn’t understand is you stated position of lying about Christianity. I am sure you as well read guy knows much more. You are also distorting Christianity laced with lies.

          • The so-called anti-Nicene fathers are considered apocryphal, i.e. not part of the standard Canon. The Catholic and protestants largely uses the same Canon, i.e. the standard books of the Bible.

            I would recommend to you the book “When Jesus became God” by historian and scholar Richard Rubinstein about what happened during the council of Nicaea.

            I do not deny you a personal relationship with Jesus that you may feel, though mainstream Christianity dubs my similar feeling for Rama as Satanic. It is Christian exclusivism, when globalized that leads to Christian genocides of native cultures throughout the world.

            Regarding the Thomas myth, do read the real history:
            http://voiceofdharma.org/books/hhce/Ch21.htm

          • MT

            Anti Nicene Fathers are not Apocryphal, and not Canonical coz they were never the books of Bible whereas they are extra Biblical epistles written by Early Church Fathers in probably 100 to 320AD till the Council of Nicea .I never claimed it to be Canonical and u should have known that it’s not part of Bible as they were written much later than even Apostles life probably after a few decades.

            We have more than enough evidences, r u discounting all all if them? . I wonder when u claim to be a scholar how on earth would u discount all the numerous historical evidences of the Apostles, their life, epistles etc.

            I would definitely recommend the epistles written by Clement, teaching of Polycarp, Ireneus, history of even cities of antiquity like Alexandria, Athens, Rome, Corinth which will provide you ample evidences of Apostles, their life, travels, visits, and their teaching. These are historically verifiable evidences not a website dedicated to vicious attacks on Christianity.

            I clearly see your gleanings as you have picked up Richard Rubenstien’s work as there so many numerous scholars and well accepted writers who attest to the divinity of Jesus. Bible itself is attests to it.

            I am aghast at your belligerent attitude of denials of so many overwhelming evidences of Christianity staring at you but you chose to attack Christianity based on lies and a church and it’s actions that deviated from the true Christianity long ago.

          • “Not in the Canon” is apocryphal. None of the gnostic gospels are considered canonical. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha

            If you are stuck with exclusive Christian theology, you denounce heathen traditions as Satanic every day in the name of your “savior.” Get used to heathens replying back. Your evidence counts for nothing, none of it proves Christian theology which is based on layer upon layer of absurdity. It is both unprovable and has, historically, been genocidal. The emperor has no clothes.

            Yes, we pray for you.

          • MT

            Not necessary.. But did I expect u to accept the evidences like a scholar, Of course No.. it’s pretty evident what you are upto. Atleast be honest to yourself and say that you are not a scholar but jut another Hinduvta crazies that I see trolling on these forums. Do u actually know the reason why they aren’t canonical, it’s not coz they didn’t carry or preach the same doctrines.. It’s because these epistles were not written during the actual life time of Apostles and wouldn’t be considered as Apostolic writings. But loss of not considering the evidences is more to you than me.. Do we beleivers expect anything lesser, the overwhelming new answer is No, coz Jesus had warned saying Christians will be persecuted for their witness and propagation of the Gospel. By now u should know which side are u on.. Here I end trying to get some sense into u.. Good luck.

          • Christians have used the myth of being persecuted for justifying genocidal acts throughout their history. They claimed pagans were persecuting them, but it was they who wiped out the Roman pagans and destroyed their temples. After they invaded the Americas, followed by mass rape and killings of the natives, they dubbed the natives “savages” and claimed they were being “attacked” and persecuted when it was they who invaded natives’ land.

            Even in India Xavier called the inquisition on the natives, tortured thousands, and was made a Saint for his trouble. The French destroyed temples in Pondicherry, so did the Nagas once they got converted by the Baptists. Yet Christians are repeatedly told stories about being “persecuted” in their Churches even in a land where they have faced no discrimination.

            Take a pause for the native cultures wiped out throughout the world by Christianity before you start on the persecution sob story. A person with a human conscience would take a pause. It is not that Christians are any more violent than others, but it is the theology of exclusivism that has resulted in genocides. And the martyrdom complex allows imaginable violence to be justified.

            I have many Indian Christian friends who denounce this only-Jesus-can-save exclusivism. But it seems like you want to cling on to that destructive theology that has brought violence to the world. Do you really want to be part of that karma of Christianity?

          • MT

            Till now during the entire conversation with you or anyone here I never mentioned the fringe elements who called themselves religious and commit atrocities.

            What do u have to say of the Karma of Hinduvta crazies, or Islamic terrorists.. I would say of the ideology or any religion that causes hatred and exhort them to commit inhuman acts is never Godly,coz if there is a true God, He would never want to kill anyone in the name of God.

            Fortunately I found my peace in Christianity where Christ never asked to kill but only to love. Would u not want to be a part of that ideology where u could love each other especially when ur God commands you to..?

            Or do u want to leave a legacy of hatred and bloodshed that expects you to commit atrocities and coz their ideology exhorts them to..

            When will your eyes open to see the truth of whatever your ideology is.. Or do u not know that as a creation you will be answerable to a God of Justice.

            If you have forgotten about it, you are reminded now.. Good luck.

          • MT

            Am intrested to know how ur gonna justify the rape of a 70yr old nun.Are you also gonna blame that on Christianity..? Oh now you may say 1000yrs ago Catholics did the crusades, so it’s time to pay back..? By the way, I am not saying that the culprits belonged to any group, unless proven otherwise.

            I think you are just blinded and playing to an majority audience here,for power, fame and money ,which is quite inhumane.

            You take any news paper, you will see that the Christians are persecuted all the time everywhere in the world and Jesus says that in Bible saying that in His Name we will be persecuted. We know that this world at this rate may not last very long as it hastens the coming of our Lord,which we are eagerly waiting.

  • Raman Krishnan Kutty

    While one may argue that the views of Jaffrey Archer, a Catholic priest turned writer that “The Father, the
    Son, and the Holy Ghost? What happened to their mother? They killed their mother
    and now she is a ghost.” , the concluding part of Sankrant Sanu quoting from Manusmriti .3.56. “The society that provides respect and dignity to women flourishes with nobility and prosperity. And a society that does not put women on such a high place has to face miseries and failures regardless of whatever noble deeds they perform otherwise” outbeat all his arguments against Western Christianity. Had Hinduism followed exactly what its Manusmriti mentioned, there would have been no room for invading faiths occupying space here. People like Sanu forget the scenario prevailed in India prior to Islamic invasion in 16-17th centuries or then Portuguese and British East India Co. in beginning of 17th & 18th centuries. The prevalent cruelest system of ‘Sati’ , suffering of widows rejected by kins in Kashi, Madhura, Banaras et.al , obstracism, female illiteracy, binding women fokks within the four walls of household and above all treating those so called ‘devis’ as object of ridicule and suppression under male footwear. burying all that anacephelitic foots under the sands of time, articulation by Sanu to suppress Christianity to popularize the so called Hindu neneged cult of “Eat, Pray and Enjoy” which is nothing but a remake of the ancient Greek, pre-Christian cult of the Epicurian and Stoic’s “Eat, Drink and Merry’ as tomorrow we will die”. Your Yoga will not give you eternal life (Salvation or Moksha in Hindu jargon). Yes, it is possible with only One and that is JESUS CHRIST the resurrected one from the dead “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven, given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

    • Please don’t equate the so-called “salvation” of the Jesus cult with Moksha. Mr. old man God sorting people into heaven-hell buckets on judgement day defies logic. Moksha is freedom from concept including the concepts of Holy Books. When you can throw away the Bible and have direct perception of reality come back and talk about Moksha. Adherence to Christian theological doctrine is a form of conceptual slavery, the exact opposite of Moksha.

      • Jinto Mathew Thomas

        Look a person who has attained Moksha, the true liberation.. dude, u shouldn’t be on earth . how come the Moksha man got all his facts and doctrines about Christianity so wrong.. r u intently trying to lie r a behavioural liar..

        • g.m

          You have totally failed in understanding what he said, your behavior proves what all he said is correct

          • Jinto Mathew Thomas

            I wish u understood what the truth is.. somehow we know that u wouldn’t unless You are His chosen or the elect. I wish u understood the joy and peace like a beleiver understands. I wish u also understood what is like when u surrender to the Creator’s will. Remember he wants to save u and not to see u perish. Christianity is not only for the people who go to church but is open to everyone who is ready to accept the truth of the Gospel. And evidences of Judeo-Christianity is so overwhelming that u don’t need much if u have have an open heart. But if you think that our parampara and pride in our sanskriti will save us, and we live in self denial, nothing can save us.

          • prashants5 .

            I am so baffled with so many ignorance coming out from MT and Raman Krishnan.

            @Raman Krishnan: Your ignroance about world’s oldest civilzation and history is not worth of any debate or Reply

            @MT
            While christianity could be about accepting the truth of the Gospel, Hinduism is about personal experience directly with the Cosmos ( and sometime through right Gurus) and hence direct interecation with God. There is nothing to accept or reject here any 3rd Party’s experience or story. There is no mandatory middle-man such as Son of God Jesus or prophet here. Parampara and Pride are not part of achieving Moksha. You can not call Moksha as Salvation. Moksha is simply non-translatable to any Non-Hindu philosophy. While Judeo-Christianity is history centrism, Hindusm is far beyond that.

            Bible is a story books which you have to accept it as “Truth” where as in Hinduism you have to directly experience optionally following Veda and Upanishads. Dharmic tradition in Hinduism is sharp contrary to Judeo-Christian emphasis from “Salvation from sin”. That is why, Adhyatma Vidya is what very unique to Hindu Philosophy. Please don’t read the Textual translation of the Vedas and other ancient Indian texst by the so called White Masters such as Giffins and Max-mullers who have demonstrated their ignorance and moronization in their translation about Hindu Philosophy. Read some authentic sources and research work.

            “Being Different” by Rajiv Malhotra is one of the best book that has compared one-one, many facets and aspects of Hinduism and Judeo-Christianity. For example Dharma is not same is Religion, Shakti is not Energy, Itihas is not the same as History. Similarly the digestion of Yoga into “Christian Yoga” are not the same. And “Surya Namaskar” is not same as “Son Salutation” ( here son means Son of God).

            The Adam-Eve progeny are born Sinner vs God is Father and Mary has a virgin Birth hence no sex and so no sin transmitted to Jesus etc. According to Christianity, Sin is a Sexually Transmitted Disease. Hence all the descendant of Adam-Eve are considered Sinners.

            In Hinduism the “Hindu Good News” is : We are born Divine ( Sat-Chit-Anand ).

          • MT

            If according to you u r are born Divine, honestly can u tell me if you haven’t lied, or haven’t lusted, or haven’t had greed in your life at all..? why do u need salvation if u think u r born Divine. Then if the belief in Vedas or any spiritual books or God is totally futile if u r born Divine. If u can be brutally honest and answer these questions, then we will talk..

          • prashants5 .

            Yes according to Hindu philsophy everyone is born divine. But it is one’s Karma ( as they continue live their life) on this material world, decides what really one earns ( both Paapa and Punya by Jeevatma ). This is sharply contradicts with Non-Hindu philosophy.

            The only way to attain “Moksha” is to have “Nishkama Karma” ( It means Karma without desire ) in your current birth. That is why we have concept of reincarnation ( Punarjanma) which is again very unique to Hindu philosophy, where another opportunity is given to attain Moksha by having another Divine birth and to earn only “Nishkama Karma”. And this birth-life-death cycle continues….infinitely, until the Jeevatma achieve Moksha based on Karma in a particular life….and becomes purely Aatma or submerged with Paramatma.

            On the other hand Cristinity is Sin centric. If you are not born Sin, you don’t need Jesus, you don’t need Church. Because Christianity doesn’t believe in Karma and Dharmic Principles. Neither it believes in Jeevatma and Paramtma nor in Re-incarnation.

          • MT

            The fallacy of that is karma can be both, Papa and Punya, which is exactly the same set of beliefs Islam has. They also beleive that anyone who beleives in Muslim faith will be judged on scale of you r works, which means Papa and Punya. That’s not unique to Hinduism.

            Now take a look at what you r saying, u have no confidence that in this life balance of karma would be tilted to Punya alone, so u have to take rebirth..

            Here’s what is different to Christianity, ur Papa or sins are forgiven if you beleive in Jesus,His crucifixion and resurrection. Which means He has already paid for your sins on the cross and you don’t have to worry about whether your karma is papa or Punya.

            And u don’t have to worry when u die, that if u don’t get a rebirth, that you couldn’t attain Moksha because u may have done more Papa.

          • prashants5 .

            Did you really understand what I wrote? You entirely misunderstood.

            Niskama karma certainly leads to Mosksha. But it is not related Papa or Punay in anyway as you are saying here. Rather it is should be very first step. As long as you earn Papa or Punya, you keep having rebirth and not necessarily Human birth. Your Atma goes to another living body.

            A body is not born sin. A body just carry the Atma which is immortal. Atma doesn’t distinguish Papa or Punya nor it is really related to. Papa and Punya are related only related to Karma. So to attain Moksha ( by Atma and not body ), you have to start with Niskama Karma and then elevate yourself to realize god. Veda and Upanishads are just guidelines and not strict rules unlike Christianity and Islam. You can also define your own guidelines and rules if you gain similar experiences what our Rishis and Munis have gained to attain Moksha.

            We never say “May your soul rest in peace”. This is a sharp contradiction to Hindu Philosophy. Nor, Hinduism says we have the only Way to attain Moksha. It is the most flexible and open architecture. You have to indeed go a long way to interpret and understand Hindu Philosophy. It is not man made but experienced by a civilization in their own way under same umbrella of attaining Moksha.

          • MT

            I think we both differ in what we mean by Divine. Divine according to me is perfect, and we don’t have to worry about doing Karma based on Punya according to the standards.

            So in Christianity Divine is means only God. We don’t ascribe divinity to man. By the way u r saying unfortunately is too confusing to me.. U r saying to attain Moksha in this life or the next. But my question what if u don’t have a life on earth again..?

            U said Rishis have Moksha experiences, which I or u don’t know. what about a common man filled with desires. I as a common man how will I attain salvation in this life..?

            What’s the proof of birth life cycles you vouch for. ? Can scholars or science validate it..? or is it mythology which is ornate enough to be read and not taken seriously.. Do u in ur current life practice this life without desires, the Karma that u stand for.. how successful is a common man when they practise a life without desire or total depravity..obviously it can’t be.. not everyone can be Rishis. These are the questions u need to ask yourself before you preach Vedas to a common man.

          • prashants5 .

            @jintomathewthomas:disqus
            You need to read lots of good books from authentic sources or engage with the real subject experts in person. And this requires you to get out from your comfort zone and engage with real people. Mouse click Activism is useless. This internet ranting won’t help you much.

            If you can’t understand the difference between Atma ( Sanskrit ) and Soul ( English ) then you can’t understand what is Hindu Philosophy is about. English language has Abrahamic influence starting from the Beginning. You need to be a Yogi to interpret and understand Veda and Upanishads correctly and prior to that you have to be a Sanskrit Scholars. Using English adjectives to derive Sanskrit word Meaning never works. There is on overnight or easy way to attain Moksha. You have to exclusively work for it through deep meditation and Kriya Yoga etc. Yoga is about Spiritual experience you have to elevate yourself by that route to directly connect with God. There is also Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga etc. A common man has to choose his path. You may also have a choice of finding a Guru who can help you leading that path but you have to walk on your own. Veda is not for a common man there are other ancient texts such as Puranas for common man. But be careful don’t buy Puranas those were infected and manufactured by British and their agents. Buy authentic ones.

            Since you are interested, you can read “Being Different” by Rajiv Malhotra, to start gaining your knowledge more refined way about Hinduism and a comparison with Christianity. Good luck!

          • MT

            Hmm.. good advice, will u also pls do that in order to justify ur defence in the set of beliefs you have. .Before u make a blanket statement that there is no truth in Christianity I would suggest you start reading yourself. .

          • prashants5 .

            Will you show me the line where I said “there is no truth in Christianity”? Are you doing Okay or just lost as usual in each of your post. To clarify I don’t have much interest in learning about Christianity. It is what bothers me when Christian Propaganda machine comes to me and try to preach about Hinduism and impose Christianity through their “Christian Good News”. We respect other world philosophy but we have to defend our won if our philosophy get digested into others by Christian propaganda machines with some filthy agendas. Lets have mutual respect for each other and co-exists together.

            Here is another Recommendation: Read “Breaking India” by Rajiv Malhotra ( National Best Seller on Amazon )

          • MT

            You said Bible is a story, which meant that there is no truth, and as u can’t equate it with mythology.

            I didn’t find u giving me sensible and logical responses my questions, but u kept referring me to various books.. Am I lost are u..?

            How are you respecting the other philosophy when u say we have a filthy agenda. Are u not forcing me to beleive the absolutely the same about u,?

            I would love to learn scholars and good critical thinkers, but not someone who would unleash vicious attacks laced with lies against a particular religion and it’s associated organizations. When u say missionaries have particular agenda, then they are not true missionaries. But I know there are so many missionaries who have been selfless in their sacrifices. You are making a blanket statement which I disagree.

          • prashants5 .

            Again you are lost. I told you internet is not the place where I want to engage with such debates. I have given enough time in countering what you said about Hindu Philosophy. Regarding Filthy Agendas I am talking about those Christian Insititutes who are carrying mass conversion in India by luring the poor. Also their funding to digest many of Hindu philosophy like the way Christians digested Pagans.

            I gave you some good reference books because you wanted to learn something seriously. You can ignore that if you think it is duliting the discssion.

        • Platinum Sphere

          Jesus came to India, converted to Hinduism/Buddhism & tried to spread Dharma back in his Abrahamic home – alas he was killed & his Hindu Message of Syncretism & acceptance was replaced by demonic hatred for the other, in the Christian Scriptures by the Church.

      • Jinto Mathew Thomas

        So basically u want people to beleive ur lies and not look any further to attain Moksha..? Is that ur way of logical reasoning..?

    • g.m

      You can not demonstrate your stupidity so loud and clear then this. go and count the rapes in Churches in Kerala , How many of your protested? Jesus needs to be saved form Modern Christianity.

    • Platinum Sphere

      Your ignorance is astonishing as much as your genocidal Bigotry of Evil Christianity. Sati was practiced ONLY & ONLY in present day Rajasthan region & parts of West Bengal. NOWHERE else was Sati Practiced – the practice took root since 1300’s as an offshoot of Jauhar, a Rajput practice where Hindu women preferred to commit mass immolation suicide to 5exual slavery by muslims, when their Rajput army would loss in the battlefield to invading Islamic armies & the kingdom would be pillaged by muslim soldiers & all the women be R@ped as per the injunctions of Islam & Koran which teach muslims to do that to non-muslims.

      You also conveniently forget the evil, genocidal way Christianity spread in India via the 200 year long most Brutal GOA INQUISITION by the Christian Church, which destroyed 3000 Hindu Temples that were invaluable gems of Indian Heritage & History as well as Hundreds of Thousands of Hindus & Secular Pro-Hindu Christians R@ped & Massacred by the Christian Church…..for 200 YEARS.

  • American hate of Narendra Modi roots in Church for their difficulty of conversions in Gujarat under Modi. This resulted in his visa cancellation by US via their criminal Baptist dominated NGO under the State and Homeland Security Depts – USCIRF 1996. Under the pressure of same Christian goons, recent atrocities on Hindus in US is taking place. India and Hindus are on their radar for conversions and oppression to ease their God market of conversions.

  • Church is under severe strain from the majority of young ppl in their society who have rejected church. This has become highly problematic for church as it has fallen short of their foot prints as well as loss of Sunday church donations. This has been made worst over last decade or so since their Pope Benedict VII (If I’m correct) was indicted of sexual misconducts leading him to resign on false grounds of ill health. Hence Vatican is targeting India (Hindus) where they see a billion strong raw market for easy conversions. I am baffled lately on English ads on net about promoting English in India because English is their backbone in India to infiltrate. I can’t see any immediate remedy to this menace of missionaries that has been promoted by UPA/Congress/Nehru-Gandhi dynasty for last >sixty odd years since independence.

    • Jinto Mathew Thomas

      English too now.. lol..look at which language he uses to speak and write.. so hypocritical.

      • Yes, u r right that I use English language because I was born English slave. You can feel good at my misery but that doesn’t add more crowns to you. It would be same in other rapacious European colonist regimes like French etc. Does it make you feel “superior” to me?

        • Jinto Mathew Thomas

          No not superior at all. I would take pride if my country folks are superior in thinking. but alas, why do I find a lot of my countrymen in self denials and hypocritical in nature..

          • Your first part of reply is just a camouflage needing no notice but beware of. Second part I copy paste here: “…but alas, why do I find a lot of my countrymen in self denials and hypocritical in nature.. ”

            Your sigh (alas) is a sophisticated typical Western style poisonous blurt deficient of any meaning or sensitivity. If anything, it’s you who is in self denial and hypocritical. You and your Abrahamic other criminal jihadi sibling are the most hypocritical and liars, who both together are responsible for destabilising this planet. Your use of false cryptonym itself shows your character and using derogatory language by trying to fool us here. Why don’t the English speaking countries use or promote Hindi language? Because this will hit their business in India. Shame on you hypocrite moron.

          • MT

            To ur response, I will ask my Father in heaven to forgive you, coz u don’t know what you are saying nor u do.. May the good Lord help u open ur eyes and give u peace in ur heart. God bless…

          • MT

          • MT

            Tel fal

          • MT

            Hope U must really feeling quite superior now. ..:-)I think my culture now needs no mention as everyone here could see what I have spoken to u and ur response for it.

            Btw u have mentioned only your first name, hence if you have courage the way you speak, say your full name so that I can find your online imprint. Then I will accept that you speak the truth.

            Btw looks like with your angst in your responses, I know that life must have been hard on you and u may have had experiences that may have caused immense hurt to u. It really doesn’t have to be that way.. Hope u find peace and true love in your life.. Remember that the the God of Abraham and Israel is a true God. Try calling Him out.. He is always waiting to hear from you and He loves you more than you know.. Good luck brother.. Peace out.

          • Lol, your blurt is typical of apologism and offence. B4 u want to know my name, shouldn’t you have done so yourself but you didn’t and won’t. I know it for sure. Bred in or by a criminal house, Abrahamics have created havoc on this land. Your comment also tells me your IQ level. Please don’t take it personal as truth is bitter. Hope you could get some psychiatric help to help your IQ improve. Abrahamics have nothing positive to preach. Hence they indulge in negative propagandas of creating an aura of fault finding in others to show that they are superior. Get out of your inborn inbuilt hate and learn from Hinduism. I know, it will irritate your mafia houses further as it hurts your pseudo pride.

          • MT

            Am I the one who preaches hate or r u..? Oh so should I know about how much of a hate spewing person r u before I call out ur hypocritical attitude.. to u.. who do u think u r, after all u r just a mortal man…

            How is asking your full name, shows less of an IQ, I think u r just a clown wanting to taken seriously.

            OK I think, with the poison u r spreading, u don’t even have the courage, to say ur full name. I am glad I called you out on that..

            A person’s intelligence here is probably is measured in the no.of hate spewing words he utters, but not in the real world anyways. Remember your words just shout out loud and clear, that u r born of sin and u r still leading a sinful life and you have no remorse even after pointing it out..

          • First practice b4 preaching. That’s called “hypocrisy” and u r the best example of it. Abrahamics are criminals who are d cause of major global problems. Get rid of them in the best interests of global peace. How can a thief call himself a thief? This is ur issue to get cured in an asylum. Go 2 ur nearest place. I’m giving u free advice though it may cost u lot of money in West – a commercialised society. The West wants free but puts price tag on everything. This has degraded them and u r one of the best example. Hypocrite…..

          • Entire Western society is a sick racist promiscuous community producing such illicit products like u trollers who doesn’t know the value of motherhood and indulge in abusing her. You can’t understand the value of morality when mother don’t mean anything. It shows your birth in a-sExUal multiplication like the lower grade of acellular living beings. ha….ha….ha…. what’s this stupid troll of ha….ha….ha…. What’s there to blurt ha….ha….ha….

  • Dr. MS

    While Hinduism views sexuality as “beautiful, natural, spiritual and personal”….the perverse colonialists killed that view while insisting our sensual women wear Victorian clothes that brought shame to their bodies and desexualized them while overly sexualizing women and their own children in their own communities and countries. This explains, as the author well explains, contradictions that became perversions.

    Rape is not just an act,,,but a state of mind. Feminists say that the mind that raped and rapes Black people, Black children and women is also the mind that rapes the land, the environment, its resources, the labor and the economy. Rape is not just about sex…it is about power, control, domination and a way for some men to attain pleasure by inflicting pain. In the Confederacy, of Christians, there were men who would not only rape Black women and children as a form of punishment, but as a way to establish their power and authority over them during slavery. Some found pleasure in watching Blacks and Natives tortured through rape.

    A feminist scholar once said that in her trip to India she was pleased to find so many men being nice to children in a genuinely caring kind way….but in the US today one cannot even talk to children on the street without people assuming that you are up to something dirty. Why? Because many men there were up to something dirty during their past of colonialism, slavery and invasion,

    This is why the mind there, and among some converts in India, can be so dark.. It tries to drag people down to its level. It is a disgustingly dark mind…and one, as Jesus himself worried, will quote the bible to suit its purpose.

    A very nice Christian friend who does Yoga once said, “Jesus was a beautiful man…but some of his followers, misfits and riff-raffs, who probably needed counseling and therapy more so than religion and theology, became scumbags of power and perversion”. How sad indeed.

    • pvas

      “…the mind that raped and rapes Black people, Black children and women is also the mind that rapes the land, the environment, its resources, the labor and the economy.”
      Very aptly put !

  • Dr. MS

    Very interesting post. And even more unfortunate is that Christianity, as feminists critique of Christianity as an institution and as an organized religion, have proposed, killed the very Jesus who was in many ways a feminine man and a feminist man. There is a theory that the excessive focus on celibacy that only later got imposed on the holy Church of Rome might have come from either gay men repressing their urges, or forced to repress their urges, in the Vatican hierarchy. Or…the close proximity of men to men, while segregating and negating women and their bodies (as sinful). might itself have led to a lot of gay experimenting among men of cloth in the church. Both the Catholic church, more so than Catholicism, and the Islamic State, are very interesting study in similarities with regard to “how women are suppressed, the feminine is neglected or negated, and a contradictory attitude to women emerges”. You put women in purdha and then lust after them. You claim to protect women and then you create a harem of owned or enslaved women. You say you love Mary and then you relegate her female children to the back, or deny them equal rights in the church or consider their beauty and sexuality the first sin. Very strange contradictions…And these kinds of contradictions inevitably lead to “perversions” , “deceptions’ and “confusions”. Has their been any study comparing the early Vatican and the current Islamic State? It would be a best seller.

    • Jinto Mathew Thomas

      This author cannot be wrong about Christianity..even though he excels in hate speech about Christianity his facts are borrowed straight from Islam and it’s theology. By the way in this age very few consider Roman Catholic as a Christian church.. let alone his rants about Christianity that is far from truth.. Liar..

      • Jinto Mathew Thomas

        I consider myself privileged to share this how Vedas and Upanishads have commanded to treat women

        http://hinduismmisogyny.blogspot.ca/2010/05/is-hinduism-mysogynistic.html?m=1

        • Dr. MS

          I think you have gotten all the Vedas and the Upanishads mistaken with the Smritis and the Sutras….You might be thinking about Manu Smriti when you mentioned the bad attitude to women, But Manu Smriti is not the only Smriti on women. It got widely prevalent due to illiteracy, Bhakti movement taking over all critical thinking, poverty and centuries of invasions, occupations, distortions and dilutions. Hinduism needs a revival and further development like any other open philosophy. We need to literally start from the scratch. Keep engaged and do read more of the Vedas, the Agamas, etc. Thanks for joining the discourse.

          • prashants5 .

            Many of the Smritis including Veda and Upanishads were adulterated in last 1000 years after the Moghul started invading. The most adulteration took place during British Regime 1750-1947. The most low class translation was done by Griffith for Vedas. The next was Max-muller. Out of 250 Smritis only 57 are traceable. Rest were destroyed

            So when people talk about Vedas, Upanishads and Smritis, they need to check their refrences twice and validate against the originals.

        • Vat-i-can of worms is a criminal house of mafias full of murderers, drug lords, human traffickers, illicit money launderers, etc. Vat-i-can houses the criminal clerics including a p0pe immiritus to shield him from pr0secution of his involvement in phys!cal abu$es of millions of cath0lic children. BTW, who murdered Roberto Calvi and why? Can you kindly tell us here?

        • Entire Abrahamic troll is a fake story cooked up by the desert criminal wandering n roaming tribes with no education or ideology. They are still fighting like c@ts n d0gs. Why doesn’t church tell us more on those lost years of fake Jesus when there are plenty of researches now in open. But that will spoil their business. Their business, unfortunately is getting spoiled anyway.

          • MT

            It’s high time u introspect yourself of what u really are.. look at ur venomous words. I never spoke a hurtful word to u, but look at you, ur anger in your words..I had once said that you are hypocritical when u spoke against the English language, when u urself write ur thoughts in English.

            It’s a pity that u r not even ready to engage in a discussion, and you sound pretty immature, infantile and insensitive.

            Learn from other dignified people here who can talk intelligently and argue endlessly about their stated positions without personally attacking someone. You need to grow up, buddy.. This is last conversation I would ever have with u on this forum.

          • Lol, sermons from a criminal born out of the history of barbaric desert community and preaching civility….ha….ha….ha…. It’s my turn to tell u ha….ha….ha…. First go and acquaint urself of your history of goons in Abrahamic cult. Two Abrahamics together are responsible for murdering billions of innocent ppl during last more than a millennium. They are the barbarians who have committed every known crime on this earth and now preaching semantics to us. Lol….ha….ha….ha….ha…. born out of an a-sExUal multiplication. Do u understand, “What’s a-sExUal multiplication???

      • Dr. MS

        Thanks Jinto for your response. I am glad you did not respond rudely, disrespectfully and defensively. Yes, you are right. Many Protestants, even in the US, do not consider Catholicism Christianity. In fact they use the term Christian to refer to Protestantism, and Catholic to refer to those who follow the Vatican or the Pope or Catholicism. You might want to write your response line by line to this author’s article. There is something many Hindus, I am a HIndu, never admit in India. The only State with the lowest corruption is “Kerala” and it has a high Christian population/ The church works hard to fight corruption. Hindus could learn from this…in stead of getting defensive. I find Christian businesses tend to be more forthright, and less unethical, in India. The recent World Governance Report has ranked India below 120 in corruption among 160 countries. That is pathetic. Modern Hindus have not matured to be a collective that can effectively efficiently and ethically govern themselves. Maybe it is all that suffering with poverty, provincialism and colonialism. But it is worth researching. We have to learn to research across religions without defensiveness. Were you calling the author a Liar or someone else.

        • Jinto Mathew Thomas

          Again dear, there so many call themselves Protestants but are neither biblical nor Christian in their teaching.. the best eg. would be Joel Osteen who has a mega church with huge numbers but hardly hold to Christian doctrine or teaching. Christ says to deny yourself, it means that His grace is sufficient for you to advance the gospel. Catholicism deviated when it brought in man made rules which is totally against the Bible. If you read the 1st book of Timothy, Paul clearly prophesised about how and the ways some would deviate from the true faith. The fact is that very few in the Catholic Church read Bible.

        • Jinto Mathew Thomas

          Yes I was calling the author a liar, coz he grossly misrepresented the Biblical doctrines. The fact is Bible deals with man on an individual basis even though fellowship is encouraged for sanctification and propagation of the message of Gospel. Biblically no church can save u from condemnation if u don’t follow and obey the message. It’s ur own salvation that u have to work for with fear and trembling. It mainly deals with man’s evil heart which is antogonistic to the message of His love and grace. So being in nation or a particular church is not gonna save an individual from eternal damnation, but a personal relationship with your Heavenly Father thru reconciliation of Christ’s cross by an individual ‘s repentance and belief is the message of Gospel. Hence Christianity is all about dealing with out own evil heart that is sinful. For a man who claims to attain Moksha can never attain it as long his heart is evil and has lusts of flesh and greed with haughty eyes. The transformation of the heart thru the acceptance is an individual’s own experience and can only verified by the fruits he displays but here God of Bible says He can help by providing His Spirit to dwell in you by perfecting ur faith in the midst of persecution. Hence through history, all along u would see Christians getting persecuted for their belief in Jesus, His crucifixion and resurrection.

          • Dr. MS

            Mr. Mathew, kindly do not call me “dear”, etc…unless I give you permission to do so. And I don’t. You can be respectful without being overly personal, infantilizing me, condescending towards me and excessively defensive.

            Do you know that it was the Christians from Europe who persecuted the natives in Latin and South America? They whole continent got converted through propaganda, punitive actions, aggression and violence. If you go to Mexico you can see museums on how natives, called Indians, were nailed to crosses to make them repent and convert. Many treated as if they were inferior. Mexico has some of the best debates on all the ill effects of Christian aggression and conversion in Latin America. They have excellent discourses that you should read.

            In Africa Christians were part of both “forced conversion and enslavement”. They converted dark skinned people like yourself…but they did not treat them as equals. President Obama’s late father was a Kenyan Muslim whose ancestors were probably naturalists, pagans…or hundred other kinds of “nature or spirit worshipers” who were first forced to convert to Christianity and then to Islam. This back and forth forced conversions is going on in Africa today…as people struggle for self determination, dignity and true self realization without punitive external controls, constraints and mental colonialism.

            Lot of violence in Europe, that lasted for nearly 500 years or more, was between Catholics and Protestants. Protestants were protesters who protested against Catholic hierarchy, oppression, exploitation, deception, hypocrisy, separation of the Church from ordinary people and their needs.

            The United States is, as their founding fathers and mothers announced, was to be land of free people, who were not only free from Anglo British monarchy, Anglo European colonial domination and exploitation (no taxation without representation) and free from classism and elitism of old Europe…. but also free to choose their religion…as “many Protestants were persecuted for their faith in Europe, and crossed the Atlantic for the New World to enjoy the freedom to practice their religion as they please”.

            In fact it was this Constitutional inalienable right that made great men like Abraham Lincoln say, “Slavery of Black people is as wrong, unConstitutional and unAmerican, as colonial domination of Americans and persecution of man for his religion was wrong”.

            It is in this Constitutional tradition that men like Mitt Romney, who may not be supported for the Presidency, claim his right to practice his Mormonism…even if it is not considered by many Christians in America as a true Christian faith or an acceptable Christian sect.

            Many wonderful Christians will tell you that Jesus was terrific, wonderful and extremely peace loving…but not all bible-thumping Christians have been good or peaceful in the name of Jesus and his holy ghost. In fact they created, sustained and left behind many wars (including the Crusades), bloodshed, colonialism, imperialism and exploitative mercantilism. Of course there is an element of cultural influence to the way most religions are practiced, pursued and implemented.

            The doctrine of Christianity is not a Jesus creation, it is a male-Christian creation. There are wonderful research, critiques and analysis coming out from many Christians theologians, doctrinal experts and even Vatican insiders…who question much of the theology itself. Particularly Christian theology that has ignored nature, ecology and integration of self with nature and natural elements. Separation of masculine and the feminine, deep disintegration of “the spirit, the soul, the body, the society and the cosmos”.

            While Hindus treat children as “little Krishnas”…Gods and Goddess to be adored, loved, respected and protected…Christianity treats everyone as sinners, creating a psychology of self hatred, self negation, body negation…that ultimately in rebellion leads to “aggression, anomie, perversions and excesses” and complete lack of “balance”. Even those who follow law and order might not be following the right order or the right laws or laws that are meanignful before being strict, firm and punitive.

            Kindly read wonderful work from many liberal Christian thinkers and visionaries who call themselves reformed Catholics, ex-Catholics, new Catholics, Christian Unitarians, Jewish-Christians, Spiritual-Christians, Christian Hindus, Jains, Agnostic Christians who believe in goodness of Jesus but not Christianity….the list is large and varied.

            Indian Christians seem to be strangely disengaged from these kinds of thoughtful discourses and thinking culture. Maybe it is the conversion, or the over simplification in their theological understanding and practices. I do not know. But I find many things you write strange. A Christian friend who read your comments found it “unbelievably feudal and dangerously reactionary”. Kindly read more critiques of Christian theology by Christian intellectuals and historians, as well as Jews, Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, Communists, etc. The critique is endless.

            Your view is an old fashioned rigid patriarchal view even among Christians.

            Best wishes,
            Dr.MS

          • Jinto Mathew Thomas

            You are wrong about lot of things. I think u are the one who needs more lessons than me. I think u r familiar with Catholic catechism and their theology or doctrines, but not post reformation. So read about the greats Calvin, Martin Luther, and their discourses in theology

            U r giving me fake history lessons which I really don’t need . William Wilberforce was the one who was instrumental in removing the slave trade in the West and he was a Christian. Martin Luther Jr. was the one who fought racial discrimination in US, again a Biblical Christian,

            After all you treat ur little Krishna the way u want, but if u don’t have love and can’t treat you folks equally what’s the point of belief. Where is the moral values if you preach untouchability and caste system.?

            . however I am only talking about Christian doctrines that are Biblical, but not blatant lies like this author has stated…? The lack of morality in the author and people I talk here is evident, coz of a lack of moral law giver. Here culture is stuffed right into ur throat, like Christians made to drink cow urine.

            Last time when BJP had come to power, it was against Muslims, now Christians have become the focus.

            The points u said make me feel, I talking to some Puranas and Vedas thumping old school Brahmans who feel that their culture and sanskriti is under attack and since BJP is in power and wanna allow the terror unfold…

          • Dr. MS

            What is your Brown Indian contribution Mr. Jinto? I know you have quoted many Anglos, British, Germans and others. What is your Brown man’s contributions, narrative, to this theology you have adopted, embraced or converted to? Do not give a long list. Just say it in a few lines…not the imported, the pontificated, the autocratic, the translated….But your own voice in your theology?

          • Jinto Mathew Thomas

            Can I ask why do u say as a Brown Man..? I just don’t understand when u say my Brown man contribution. For us to adopt an ideology, why do u think race is so important.? Among the scholars I mentioned,Dr. Ravi Zacharias is an Indian. Is that what you were asking me..?

          • Jinto Mathew Thomas

            By the way theology is a never ending study, the more you know about Him, ur worship is more exalted. I am still studying, but I don’t think I am qualified yet to write about theology. I am still a student. But the learning what I had for past numerous years, it’s sufficient enough to give me enough faith. I wish u read the the Bible . Christian faith is quite uniquely personal in a way that deals with our heart. But belief is what’s required and I know that u don’t. I hope u do.. actually I know it’s a losing battle what I am doing here.. Hope u find, love peace and happiness in whatever u think u r doing. This would be my final response about this post as I think I have protested enough. Thankyou

          • Dr. MS

            You are pontificating, preaching and promoting…not explaining. That to me is the problem. If you have an experience…that is fine. But why do you pontificate to me about reading the Bible and embracing your faith in “Him”? If I did that to you with regard to my Goddess would you like it? You are not explaining or discoursing. You are just pontificating like the Mullahs, Preachers and Patriarchal men (who just push. promote, argue, argue and argue). Zacharias simply borrows what he is given, He is not a contributor to theology. Come on,,.you know that. Alright we are going to stop here.And thank you for not calling me dear, baby, etc. I am not insecure…but when I do not know a person or the context in which they are writing I may find that too personal or too condescending. Ask you adult daughter or wife, they’ll explain what I mean. I shall not be engaging you on this issue anymore. Best wishes

          • Jinto Mathew Thomas

            Oh so u meant my experience.. it was what helped me change. It’s my personal experience of change that occurred to me in terms of my sinful ways, addictions and my perspective which also provided me hope. The fact about Christianity is you can’t accept it unless you are brutally honest atleast to yourself. I am not pontiff, priest nor a Pastor, but yes I would vouch for Christianity coz it not only helped me but there are lot of other credible testimonies which I have to come to know in the years that I have known Christ.

            Again the context of calling u dear I had explained before, but I never called u baby, or an infant. I think I have been courteous to throughout by discussion with you.

            Ravi Zacharias or any others I have read or dealt with, I didn’t find them having faith coz they were given that. That’s quite a fallacy when u talk about Christianity. It’s definitely finding the faith in Christ when u know Him.

      • g.m

        Make it more loud and clear. Christianity by definition: Borne sinners,-Others are sinners, will go to Hell,- as no relevance in the modern world. it is the root cause of all cultural problem. Abandon these two principals , Jesus will be saved form Church.

        • Jinto Mathew Thomas

          True, not others but everyone including the believers, and we know that. It’s not something that we hide about. We know that man has an evil heart, that’s where Christianity triumphs lasts for ages coz Man’s heart was always evil. But when a beleiver beleives in Christ he is justified and has access to His Father in heaven not by his or her works but by Jesus death on the cross and thus a beleiver is reconciled and He also promises to sanctify a beleiver if he or she continues in the faith by pouring out His Spirit (referred as the Holy Ghost, unlike what the author stated) in the beleivers. U just have to believe. Christians don’t claim Moksha by by believing in karma or their parampara and sanskriti.

          • Not everyone is born sinner. This is your Book teaches you to keep your mind full of guilt so that you remain wedded to these criminal clerics and don’t question their erratic behaviour. Learn your truth that is, “Everyone is a ‘Divine’ Child full of all virtues”. They don’t want you to know your reality because that will kill their business. Everyone is a Godly child by birth. It’s a long chapter to delineate here. You need to go and leave your beaten track by these myopic clerics wedded to a book only. Get out of their cobweb like a frog in a well.