Propagandizing the Aryan Invasion Debate: A Rebuttal to Tony Joseph

India’s left-liberal-secular clique seems determined to propagandize the Indian public with its spin on the Aryan invasion debate by any means possible. A rebuttal to Tony Joseph’s article in The Hindu

On 16 June 2017, an article appeared on the Hindu titled “How genetics is settling the Aryan migration debate” by Tony Joseph. This article claims that the question of the origin of the Indo-Aryan people has been “settled”, based on the findings of a research paper that was published three months ago.

In this response, I will go into some detail to refute Joseph’s claims. There are a number of reasons why Joseph’s claims and conclusions are incorrect:

1. The article is based on an unreliable source.

Joseph’s article is based on a peer-reviewed research paper [1], which, at first sight, appears to be an impeccable source. Being published in a peer-reviewed journal, however, does not automatically endow a research paper with credibility. There are big issues with the peer review, which is known to be a flawed process [2]. Nobel prize-winning papers have been known to be rejected by the peer review, while works of low quality are often accepted.

Silva et al.’s paper claims that earlier studies such as [3] are inaccurate and cites two papers from 2015 [4,5] and one from 2016 [6] – which it refers to as “sufficient high-quality Y-chromosome data” – to conclude that R1a-Z93 (a subclade of the R1a haplogroup), which is prevalent in South and Central Asia, is between 5,600 and 4,000 years old, and is indicative of male-driven Bronze Age (c. 3,000 BCE to c. 1,200 BCE approximately) incursions by Indo-Aryans into India from Central Asia (“robust conclusions”, per Joseph). To understand what a haplogroup is, please refer to [7].

Silva et al.’s paper has two major failings:

(1) The authors have misinterpreted the dating of the expansions within R1a-Z93 given in [5] as the age (Time to Most Common Recent Ancestor: TMCRA) of the subclade itself. The paper [5] refers only to expansions within R1a-Z93 occurring approximately 4,000 – 4,500 years ago in South Asia; it does not refer to the time of the subclade’s diversification from its parent haplogroup; it makes no attempt to determine the subclade’s TMRCA and makes no claim that the date of the expansions coincides with the subclade’s TMRCA. Silva et al’s conclusions misrepresent the findings of [5] which they cite, and are therefore incorrect.

(2) Silva et al. neglect to cite research papers that do not support their conclusions. Academic research papers must cite all research that is relevant to their work, even if it contradicts their findings (in which case they must prove that their work improves upon, or disproves that of their predecessors). For example, in my article about the Aryan Invasion Myth, I have clearly stated that there are several genetic studies that claim that the Aryan Invasion Theory is correct. Furthermore, I have also given an unambiguous explanation of why those conclusions are incorrect.

In contrast, Silva et al. neglect to cite the 2015 paper by Lucotte [8], which samples a dataset of 6643 male DNA samples originating from 79 populations in 52 countries (more than the samples of [4,5,6] put together). Lucotte’s paper demonstrates that the Z93 subclade originated in India and is approximately 15,450 years old, thereby confirming and refining the results of several older studies [3,9,10].

Silva et al. also neglect to cite the recent paper by Tamang and Thangaraj [11] which rejects the possibility of an Aryan invasion/migration and concludes that Indian populations are genetically unique and harbor the second highest genetic diversity after Africans.

Silva et al. are guilty of cherry-picking: they have selectively chosen data that support their conclusions, and tried to suppress data that doesn’t. A biased approach such as this invariably leads to skewed and inaccurate results and conclusions.

Due to these glaring deficiencies, Silva M. et al.’s paper cannot be considered a credible or reliable work of research.

This dismantles the very basis of Joseph’s article, and renders it irrelevant and moot.

2. The article ignores a fundamental rule of scientific research.

Apart from the deficiencies in Silva et al.’s paper, there is also the fact that the paper’s results and conclusions have not been independently corroborated by other research teams (not surprising, considering it was published only three months ago). New scientific results are widely accepted only after they withstand rigorous testing and are confirmed independently by other research teams, as is borne out by numerous historical examples.

Einstein’s announcement of the general theory of relativity in 1915, for example, did not cause any headlines until 1919, when the bending of light by the Sun’s gravitational field was first observed (simultaneously in Brazil and western Africa). Many more tests of general relativity were devised and performed during the past century, and the theory continues to be tested today. General relativity has passed all these tests without exception, which is why it is widely accepted as being correct.

Often, even a confirmation by one independent team is not enough if other teams are unable to confirm a result. The Italian research group that runs the DAMA/LIBRA experiment has for years claimed to have detected the signature of dark matter with high statistical significance, a result that appears to be confirmed by the results of the American CoGeNT experiment. Physicists, though, remain skeptical of the results because experiments such as XENON (Italian) and LUX (American) have been unable to replicate them.

Prematurely proclaiming a discovery can cause considerable embarrassment. Consider the March 2014 announcement that the BICEP2 telescope had discovered the first evidence of gravitational waves and cosmic inflation. It generated headlines worldwide, and a video of the distinguished theoretical physicist Andrei Linde choking back tears on being told of the discovery went viral on YouTube. Sadly, the claim had to be withdrawn less than a year later when it was found that the signal was caused by dust within the Milky Way, which the researchers had failed to anticipate.

Although I have given examples from research in physics, the same fundamental rule applies to the science of genetics, namely:

New scientific results must always be treated with skepticism. They must be accepted only after they withstand rigorous testing and there is strong, independent confirmation of their correctness and accuracy.

Joseph, in his desperation for “settling” the issue, has ignored this cardinal rule. Or, perhaps, he may be ignorant of it altogether, which would not be surprising given his lack of a scientific background.

3. The article neglects relevant and important research papers.

While Joseph refers to the 1,244 male DNA samples in [5] as an “avalanche of new data”, he, like Silva et al, conveniently neglects the veritable tsunami of 6643 male DNA samples in Lucotte’s paper [8]. He also neglects (again, like Silva et al.) the recent paper by Tamang and Thangaraj [11] which rejects the possibility of an Aryan invasion/migration and concludes that Indian populations are genetically unique and harbor the second highest genetic diversity after Africans.

Joseph is guilty of either cherry-picking data, or of ignorance: it is possible that he was not aware of this research, given his lack of specialization in genetics. If the former is true, it is indicative of deception and dishonesty; if the latter is true, it raises the question as to why a person who does not possess sufficient competence in the subject has been allowed to publish an article in the Hindu.

4. The article misrepresents the conclusions of the second paper it cites.

The second paper [5] cited in Joseph’s article refers to “striking expansions within R1a-Z93” occurring approximately 4,000 – 4,500 years ago, which predate the downfall of the Indus Valley Civilization by a few centuries, and have a notable parallel with events in Europe.

Joseph interprets this to mean that there was a significant inflow of Indo-European language (which he infers to be Sanskrit) speakers from Central Asia into India in the Bronze Age, approximately 4,000 to 4,500 years ago (the so-called Aryan invasion/migration), even though the authors of [5] make no such claim, referring only to lineage expansions within R1a-Z93 in South Asia.

A lineage expansion within a particular geographical region does not necessarily indicate an invasion from outside. It can also indicate a rapid (over a few centuries) migratory expansion within the region (or even outward) by its indigenous inhabitants due to a geological or climatic change (for example, the drying-up of a major river due to declining monsoons).

Joseph’s conclusion is therefore, regrettably, incorrect.

5. The article neglects relevant archaeological, literary, and linguistic evidence.

Genetics does not exist in a vacuum. It is closely related to the fields of linguistics (hence the term “genetic relationship” for languages that belong to the same language family), anthropology, sociology, archaeology, and even the little-known (but important) field of literary archaeology.

Joseph claims that the Indo-Aryans originated in the Pontic-Caspian steppe. However, if one considers the research of Sharma et al [10], Lucotte [8], Sarkar et al [12], the overwhelming archaeological evidence of temporal (spanning nearly ten millennia) as well as geographical (from the north to the south) cultural continuity of Indian civilization, as well as literary and linguistic evidence, all of which is presented in [7], a very different scenario presents itself:

The haplogroup R1a* originated in India approximately 15,450 – 18,500 years ago. Its members primarily settled along the (now defunct) Sarasvati and (extant) Sindhu rivers and their tributaries, and formed what is known as the Harappan or Indus Valley Civilization. Of these rivers, the Sarasvati was by far the mightiest and most significant.

After approximately 5,000 BCE, the monsoon started declining monotonically. This gradually weakened the Sarasvati, which eventually dried out to a large extent around 1,500 BCE. The Harappan civilization thus gradually deurbanized due to declining monsoons, and its inhabitants migrated both eastward as well as westward, which is a logical and plausible explanation for the “striking expansions within R1a-Z93” that occurred approximately 4,000 – 4,500 years ago per [5].

The westward Indo-Aryan expansion is a plausible explanation for the male-mediated demic expansions of R1a1a (R-M17) into Europe beginning around 2,500 BCE, which, to a large extent, replaced indigenous European males and their Y-chromosome strata. It also explains R1a1a’s diversification into the European R1a-Z282 and Asian R1a-Z93 branches.

This scenario is more logical, plausible and in line with known genetic, archaeological, linguistic, and literary evidence than Joseph’s wishful “connecting of the dots”.

6. The author seems ignorant of the fact that the issue can only be settled by Harappan DNA.

India’s civilizational roots lie buried along the Sarasvati river’s dry paelo-channel (much of which is situated in India). More than 500 archaeological sites are known to exist (the vast majority of which are unexplored), and there are undoubtedly many more waiting to be discovered.

Since many of these sites are over eight millennia old (possibly even older), it is probable that very ancient human remains will be found there. These human remains’ DNA holds the key to settling the question of the origin of the Indian people once and for all, for it will reveal what haplogroup the people of the Sindhu-Sarasvati civilization (the so-called Harappans) belonged to.

If the R1* haplogroup is detected in Harappan remains, it will conclusively prove that the Indo-Aryan people originated in India. Given the preponderance of genetic and other evidence that supports this possibility, this may well be the case, but time will tell. The matter will be settled only after a large number of ancient Harappan DNA samples are tested.

This is the only definitive way to settle the Aryan invasion/migration debate, but again, Joseph appears to be wholly ignorant of this fact.

7. More errors, and cherry-picked interviews.

Joseph makes the ridiculous claim that a small percentage of Indian females carry the R1a lineage.

Are you serious, Mr. Joseph?

Are you serious, Mr. Joseph?

Does Joseph not know that R1a is a Y-chromosomal, patrilineal (male-only) haplogroup? Does he not know that the Y chromosome is absent in females (who have two X chromosomes)? Most high-school students would be able to teach him this! This is extraordinarily poor journalism; it is what happens when non-scientists write science articles.

Furthermore, Joseph alludes to interviews with scientists who are known to support his conclusions that the Indo-Aryans originated outside India. That is well and good, but he fails to inform the readers of the views of the many scientists who do not support his agenda. By doing so, he makes it appear as if there is unanimous support for his conclusions.

This, I regret to say, is deceptive, dishonest, and very poor journalism.

In Conclusion

In my previous article, I had written: “I therefore expect India’s “eminent” leftist historians to either ignore the results of the research papers and studies cited herein (as they have largely done thus far), or to respond with cherry-picked data and flawed logic as has long been their wont.”

Although Joseph is neither “eminent” not a historian, he has done precisely this in his article, as demonstrated above.

His article is typical of India’s leftist has-beens: devoid of original research, based on other people’s work, presents subjective opinions rather than hard results, and uses far-fetched and convoluted logic to make biased and untenable arguments that are unsupported by scientific evidence.

It is a propaganda piece which makes a clever attempt to spin public opinion in a certain direction by citing research papers and alluding to email conversations with scientists. Sadly, it is little more than a hodge-podge of self-contradicting and incorrect claims that appear scholarly but do not stand up to rigorous scrutiny: the very definition of “pseudo-intellectual”.

India’s left-liberal-secular clique seems determined to propagandize the Indian public with its spin on the Aryan invasion debate by any means possible, and it has evidently co-opted the Hindu into its agenda.

It is perplexing that the Hindu published the article without fact-checking it. It is even more perplexing that the Hindu employs non-scientists to write articles about hard science, and presents their subjective opinions as facts.

One would expect a venerable, eminent organization such as the Hindu, despite its ideological biases, to value its reputation and respect its readers enough to hire science post-graduates and Ph.D.s for the job. It is disappointing that it is not so.

References

  1. Silva M. et al. A genetic chronology for the Indian Subcontinent points to heavily sex-biased dispersals. BMC Evolutionary Biology, 2017; 17 (1) DOI: 10.1186/s12862-017-0936-9
  1. Smith R. Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals. Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine. 2006;99(4):178-182.
  1. Underhill P. A. et al. Separating the post-Glacial coancestry of European and Asian Y chromosomes within haplogroup R1a. Eur J Hum Genet. 2010;18:479–84. doi: 10.1038/ejhg.2009.194.
  1. Karmin M, Saag L, Vicente M, et al. A recent bottleneck of Y chromosome diversity coincides with a global change in culture. Genome Research. 2015;25(4):459-466. doi:10.1101/gr.186684.114.
  1. Poznik GD, Xue Y, Mendez FL, et al. Punctuated bursts in human male demography inferred from 1,244 worldwide Y-chromosome sequences. Nature genetics. 2016;48(6):593-599. doi:10.1038/ng.3559.
  1. Batini C, Hallast P, Zadik D, et al. Large-scale recent expansion of European patrilineages shown by population resequencing. Nature Communications. 2015;6:7152. doi:10.1038/ncomms8152.
  1. Chavda A. Aryan Invasion Myth: How 21st Century Science Debunks 19th Century Indology. IndiaFacts.org. 05-05-2017. http://indiafacts.org/aryan-invasion-myth-21st-century-science-debunks-19th-century-indology/
  1. Lucotte G. (2015) The Major Y-Chromosome Haplotype XI – Haplogroup R1a in Eurasia. Hereditary Genet 4:150. doi: 10.4172/2161-1041.1000150
  1. Sengupta S. et al. Polarity and temporality of high-resolution Y-chromosome distributions in India identify both indigenous and exogenous expansions and reveal minor genetic influence of Central Asian pastoralists. Am J Hum Genet. 2006;78:202–21.
  1. Sharma S. et al. The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. Journal of Human Genetics (2009) 54, 47–55; doi:10.1038/jhg.2008.2
  1. Tamang R., Thangaraj K. Genomic view on the peopling of India. Investig. Genet., 3, 20. (2012).
  1. Sarkar A. et al. Oxygen isotope in archaeological bioapatites from India: Implications to climate change and decline of Bronze Age Harappan civilization. Sci. Rep. 6, 26555; doi: 10.1038/srep26555 (2016).
Disclaimer: The facts and opinions expressed within this article are the personal opinions of the author. IndiaFacts does not assume any responsibility or liability for the accuracy, completeness, suitability, or validity of any information in this article.
A. L. Chavda is a theoretical physicist whose research interests include dark matter, dark energy, black hole physics, quantum gravity, and the physics of the very early universe.
  • Milin Patel

    The first paragraph of this author’s so-called rebuttal shows his extreme bias and lack of what we called a brain:

    “Joseph’s article is based on a peer-reviewed research paper [1], which, at first sight, appears to be an impeccable source. Being published in a peer-reviewed journal, however, does not automatically endow a research paper with credibility. There are big issues with the peer review, which is known to be a flawed process [2]. Nobel prize-winning papers have been known to be rejected by the peer review, while works of low quality are often accepted.”

    I almost died laughing reading this paragraph…

  • Shiva Shankar

    I love it when ‘upper’ caste hindus get worked up about this side-show. That hindustan is the sorriest country on earth, the filthiest, the most unequal, the most illiterate, that it practices the ‘unparalleled social abuse of untouchability (A.J.Toynbee)’ … all this bothers them not one bit. Aryans moved out of India, this little bit of nonsense is what will satisfy their pathetic selves.

    • GulliverFredrich2

      Aryan invasion is akin to flat earth science has zero credibility whatsoever sorry!

      • Milin Patel

        Gulliver, are you like 10 yrs old? Haha… Go read some research papers. The aryan invasion/migration theory is accepted in academic circles. Of course if you base your ideas off of ridiculous internet Hindutva pieces like this, you will think otherwise.

        I will just ask you to grow up! 🙂

        • GulliverFredrich2

          uuiimmmm no you ignoramus retard, EVEN A 10 YEAR OLD WITH ENOUGH TIME ON HIS HANDS, WITH A WORKING INTERNET CONNECTION IN THIS DAY AND AGE CAN FIGURE OUT THAT AIT/AMT IS A PSEUDO SCIENTIFIC IDEA THAT HAS NO REAL EVIDENCE OF IT HAPPENING! NONE!

          Unfortunately common sense and logic seems to be incomprehensible and a challenge for you, hence you posted this moronic idiotic comment that didn’t refute a single one of my supporting evidence for my claims.

          Also the argument of “it’s accepted amongst academic circles” is supremely moronic because most of these academics are simply pushing this idea WITHOUT REAL DIRECT SUPPORTNG EVIDENCE AND BECAUSE THEY HAVE AN AGENDA!

          Also what you just did there is called an argument by authority and a statement argument nevermind actually refute my claims substantially. But unfortunately it seems you never took a formal college level philosophy or logic class.

          Sorry but the only mentally challenged individual is you! YOU ARE AN IMBECILE NOT WORTH MY TIME!

          • Milin Patel

            This was your so-called argument:

            Aryan invasion is akin to flat earth science has zero credibility whatsoever sorry!

            What is there to refute you clown? Absolutely nothing. You did not even make a proper point you turd. Now you want proof for the AIT? Here it is:

            https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-017-0936-9

            Please present an actual rebuttal, not the trash points raised in this comedy piece…

            The author (of this article – nutcase Chavda) writes:

            The authors have misinterpreted the dating of the expansions within R1a-Z93 given in [5] as the age (Time to Most Common Recent Ancestor: TMCRA) of the subclade itself. The paper [5] refers only to expansions within R1a-Z93 occurring approximately 4,000 – 4,500 years ago in South Asia; it does not refer to the time of the subclade’s diversification from its parent haplogroup; it makes no attempt to determine the subclade’s TMRCA and makes no claim that the date of the expansions coincides with the subclade’s TMRCA. Silva et al’s conclusions misrepresent the findings of [5] which they cite, and are therefore incorrect.

            Now all you have to do is read the actual paper and see how wrong these claims are. It gives dates for the diversification and uses samples outside of South Asia:

            https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4381518/figure/KARMINGR186684F1/

          • GulliverFredrich2

            “This was your so-called argument:

            Aryan invasion is akin to flat earth science has zero credibility whatsoever sorry!What
            is there to refute you clown? Absolutely nothing. You did not even make
            a proper point you turd. Now you want proof for the AIT?”

            Umm no, you obviously have severe reading comprehension skills and didn’t read the gigantic paragraph by paragraph refutation I posted in my previous response to the other user. Please read my previous posts in this thread to see Aryan migration getting destroyed, unfortunately the high level logic and reason in those paragraphs might be too much for your moronic retarded brain to handle.

            “https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12862-017-0936-9”

            This obviously does not refute MY ORIGINAL ARGUMENTS AND CLAIMS, and this is also false and shoddy research, because not only are the SAMPLE POPULATIONS COMPLETELY SLANTED AND CORUPTED, BUT THE CLAIMS IN IT HAVE BEEN DEBUNKED AND REFUTED BEFORE! The genes that this study talks about, DOES NOT INDICATE DISPERSALS FROM EUROPE OR CENTRAL ASIA OR SIBERIA TO THE INDIA/SOUTH ASIA AREA! THERE IS NO GENETIC EVIDENCE OR REAL HARD ARCHEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE OF THAT!

            More ever the India/South region HAS THE HIGHEST AMOUNT OF GENETIC DIVERSITY OUTSIDE OF AFRICA AND AFRICAN POPULATIONS WHOM HAVE THE HIGHEST GENETIC DIVERSITY IN THE WORLD TODAY; AND THERE ARE LINEAGES THAT USED TO EXIST IN THE SOUTH ASIA REGION, THAT DO NOT EXIST THERE ANYMORE BECAUSE OF LARGE SCALE GLOBAL DISASTERS LIKE THE MOUNT TOBA ERUPTION; WHICH ELIMINATED MANY ANCIENT GENETIC LINEAGES THAT USED TO EXIST IN INDIA/SOUTH ASIA, BUT NO LONGER EXIST THERE BUT INSTEAD EXIST IN PLACES LIKE AFRICA OR OCEANIA OR EVEN EASTERN ASIA!

            Also these authors that wrote this article, DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THAT AUSTRALIAN ABORIGINALS AND OTHER OCEANIC RELATED POPULATIONS, WHOM MIGRATED FROM THE SOUTH ASIA/INDIA AREA TO PLACES LIKE AUSTRALIA, HAVE BIGGER SETS OF GENETIC DIVERSITY THEN MANY ANCIENT AFRICAN POPULATIONS, AND ONCE AGAIN HAVE GENETIC LINEAGES THAT NO LONGER EXIST IN INDIA/SOUTH ASIA DUE TO DISASTERS LIKE TOBA!

            Which simply PROVES THAT THE SUPPOSED LINEAGES THAT THESE AUTHORS CLAIM AS HAVING DISPERSED INTO SOUTH ASIA, DID NOT INFACT MIGRATE THERE (which there is no archeological evidence of in the first place), BECAUSE OF THE UNDER-RESEARCHED GENETIC DIVERSITY OF INDIAN POPULATIONS, WHOM HAVE NOT BEEN COMPLETELY GENETICALLY MAPPED AS OF YET! Infact it was ACTUALLY ILLEGAL TO TAKE GENETIC TESTS OF INDIAN PEOPLES IN INDIA UNTIL RECENTLY!

            Also the names of people behind this research article are for the most part, belong entirely to foreigners and White Europeans, AND NOT WITH A MAJORITY OR SIGNIFICANT ETHNIC INDIAN/SOUTH ASIAN RESEARCH TEAM WHOM LIVE IN INDIA/SOUTH ASIA AND HAVE ACCESS TO INDIAN SOUTH ASIAN PEOPLES DIRECTLY AND MEDICAL/GENETIC TESTING SAMPLES/FACILITIES OF THEM! And because THESE RESEARCHERS DO NOT HAVE THAT ABILITY NOR DO THEY LIVE IN SOUTH ASIA, THIS LEAVES THE POSSIBILITY OF EVIDENCE TAMPERING, REPORTING OF FALSE INFORMATION AND CHANGING BY THIS UNQUALIFIED PARTY PUBLISHING THIS REPORT! In law enforcement there is the concept of the chain of custody in evidence handling. If for one instance the handling of a piece of evidence is not definitively witnessed, evidence tempering becomes a possibility. It is not to say that the evidence assuredly had been tempered with, it is just that the possibility renders the value of the evidence null.

            Also what these researchers and idiots like yourself do not understand, IS THAT ANCIENT POPULATIONS OF EUROPE, CENTRAL ASIA AND SIBERIA, THE HOMELAND RANGE OF THE WHITE ANDROVONO/KURGAN/ARYAN PEOPLES, ARE NOT THE EXACT SAME AS THEY ARE NOW! INFACT THERE IS A GENETIC DISCONTINUITY BETWEEN NEOLITHIC EUROPEAN POPULATIONS AND MODERN WHITE EUROPEAN POPULATIONS! MODERN WHITE EUROPEAN POPULATIONS ARE NOT GENETICALLY HOMOGENEOUS TO THIS DAY AND DO NOT BELONG TO ONE SINGLE GENETIC HAPLOGROUP LINEAGE! There ARE VARIOUS GENETIC HAPLOGROUPS IN EUROPE THAT DO NOT HAVE A MAJOR PRESENCE IN INDIA/SOUTH ASIA LIKE R1b or I1 or N1c etc! AND THIS EVEN APPLIES TO MODERN DAY CENTRAL ASIAN AND SIBERIAN POPULATIONS!

            Therefore since these poorly researched and heavily tampered articles DO NOT INCLUDE THESE CIRCUMSTANCES AND SHODDILY USE THE MODERN POPULATIONS OF THESE REGIONS OF THE WORLD TO MAKE THESE IDIOTIC CLAIMS, WHOM ARE NOT GENETICALLY HOMOGENEOUS TO THIS DAY WITH SIGNIFICANT GENETIC DIFFERENCES EXISTING AMONG THE GROUPS IN THESE REGIONS, AND DO NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE NATURAL GENOMIC DIVERSITY OF INDIAN/SOUTH ASIAN POPULATIONS, IT MAKES THE CLAIMS MADE BY ARTICLES LIKE THESE TO BE INVALID AND FAULTY!

            “Please present an actual rebuttal, not the trash points raised in this comedy piece…”

            And the article here once again shows your idiocy and ignorance, because NOT ONLY IS THAT OUTDATED GENETIC ARTICLE FROM 2015, BUT THIS ONCE AGAIN COMPLETELY USED CORRUPTED AND TAMPERED WITH SAMPLING METHODS TO SLANT THEIR CLAIMS BASED ON INCREDIBLY QUESTIONABLE RESEARCH, BUT IT DOESN’T NEGATE THE RECENT GENETIC RESEARCH DONE BY ACTUAL PEOPLE FROM THE SOUTH ASIA REGION, WHICH DOES SUPPORT THE CLAIMS MADE IN THIS MORONIC ARTICLE PIECE AND REFUTE THE IDEA OF AMT/AIT, WHICH AGAIN THERE IS NO REAL PHYSICAL PROOF OR EVIDENCE OF IN THE ACTUAL ARCHEOLOGICAL RECORD!

            Also there is no way that a lot these genetic haplogroups COULD HAVE DIVERSIFIED IN PLACES LIKE CENTRAL ASIA OR SIBERIA OR EUROPE, SIMPLY BECAUSE THOSE REGIONS OF THE WORLD WERE BARREN INHOSPITABLE PLACES INCAPABLE OF SUPPORTING LARGE POPULATIONS UNTIL RELATIVELY RECENTLY SINCE THE LAST ICE AGE! NORTHERN EUROPE AND SIBERIA AND EVEN PARTS OF SOUTH/CENTRAL ASIA WERE COMPLETELY COVERED IN LARGE CONTINENTAL WIDE ICE SHEETS THAT WERE IN MANY CASES IMPASSABLE AND MADE HUMAN SETTLEMENT IN THEM IN MANY CASES IMPOSSIBLE!

            THE MIGRATION OF HUMAN POPULATIONS WAS FROM A SOUTH-TO-NORTH AXIS FOLLOWING THE RETREATING OF ICE AGE GLACIER SHEETS AND THE INCREASING OF TEMPERATURE OF THE EARTH FOLLOWING THE LAST ICE AGE; THE GENETIC AND HISTORICAL RESEARCH SHOWS THIS, AND THIS IS ACCEPTED AMONG NEARLY ALL HISTORIANS AND ACADEMICS. THEREFORE IT’S COMPLETELY IDIOTIC AND MORONIC THAT THIS PATTERN WOULD NOT CONTINUE OR FOLLOW LATER ON IN HISTORY IN PRE-ANCIENT TIMES FOLLOWING PERIODS WHERE THE EARTH WARMED UP AND POPULATIONS MIGRATED TO HIGHER LATITUDES FOR MORE FERTILE HABITABLE LANDS, WHICH DID HAPPEN AND SUPPORT IDEAS LIKE OIT AND “ARYAN” GROUPS MIGRATING OUT AS THE INDUS VALLEY CIV DECLINED DUE TO ECOLOGICAL SHIFTS AND DRYING UP OF MAJOR RIVER BEDS DUE TO PLANETARY TEMPERATURE INCREASES AND FLUCTUATIONS OCCURRING DURING THE SUPPOSED AIT/AMT PERIOD!

            What this again INDICATES THAT IF THERE WAS ANY ARYAN MIGRATION OR INVASION FOLLOWING THE LAST ICE AGE, IT HAD TO HAVE BEEN FROM A SOUTH TO NORTH AXIS, AS IS HISTORICALLY COMMON, WHICH MEANS THAT THE “ARYANS” IF THEY WERE A HYPOTHETICAL SINGULAR ETHNIC GROUP, WOULD HAVE MIGRATED FROM INDIA/SOUTH ASIA, ONE OF THE MOST, IF NOT THE MOST POPULATED ANCIENT INHABITED REGIONS ON THE PLANET, FROM THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE TO THE NORTHERN HEMISPHERE (Central Asia, Siberia, Europe) FOLLOWING THIS COMMON HISTORICAL PATTERN!

            And even TO THIS DAY REGIONS LIKE CENTRAL ASIA AND SIBERIA AND NORTHERN EUROPEAN ARE COLD BARREN WASTELANDS INCAPABLE OF SUPPORTING HUGE AND LARGE CIVILIZATIONS WITHOUT THE AID OF MODERN TECHNOLOGY! NO ANCIENT MAJOR CIVILIZATION OF NOTE ORIGINATED FROM THESE PARTS OF THE WORLD WHICH MEANS THEY COULD NOT HAVE HAD MAJOR POPULATION CENTERS IN THE PRE-ANCIENT AND POST-ICE AGE ERA PERIODS!

            Therefore the claim that HORDES OF HYPOTHETICAL PEOPLES COULD HAVE MASS MIGRATED TO THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE FROM THESE PARTS OF THE WORLD, GIVEN THE HUGE POPULATION NUMBERS OF REGIONS LIKE SOUTH ASIA, WHICH DOES NOT FOLLOW HISTORICAL PRECEDENT, AND REGIONS WHICH WERE ACTUALLY WAS BECOMING MORE FERTILE AND HABITABLE DUE TO THE INCREASE OF THE EARTH’S AVERAGE TEMPERATURE FOLLOWING THE ICE AGE, MAKES THIS IDEA OF AMT/AIT COMPLETELY LAUGHABLE, IDIOTIC, UNREALISTIC AND INVALID!

            Sorry but I am right and you are wrong! Also you committing an argument of authority fallacy by citing outdated and disproved genetic research articles, AND NOT ACTUALLY PROVIDING REAL LEGITIMATE LOGIC AND REASONING TO PROVIDE BASIS FOR YOUR ARGUMENTS AND CLAIMS!

          • Milin Patel

            I just read the first paragraph of your rant and stopped. How the fuck can the population groups sampled be “slanted”. A population is a population, and if the wrong population was chosen, the data from the experiment would reflect it. Clearly you have never read a research paper or taken any basic course on statistics or logic in your life.

          • GulliverFredrich2

            Umm no, the POPULATIONS IN THOSE STUDIES WERE INTENTIONALLY AND DELIBERATELY CORRUPT OR UNRELIABLE SAMPLES, IN ORDER TO PURVEY AND PROPAGATE CERTAIN VIEWS! Geneticists and scientists do it all the time, and there are countless arguments and debates in online forums that expose them doing this. Clearly you don’t have a half working brain or understand basic logic or are intentionally playing dumb for the sake of this argument, but please give me something better!

          • Milin Patel

            You are a complete nutcase. Give your rants to retarded OIT propagandists… You are being blocked for wasting my time. Now fuck off…

          • GulliverFredrich2

            Nope! I am the sane and logical one and you are not! I have given the proper logic and arguments and reasoning, and so far you have not managed to refute any of my original points or this article except give moronic outdated sources as well as idiotic half baked false arguments and logic. It was easy winning this argument and completely destroying you! 1) You AIT supporters are all the same, you use outdated and corrupt sample populations to propagate false views and conclusions 2) disregard basic logic and reasoning and throw it out the window or skew it in a shower of lies and deceptive news for that purpose of push lies 3) When 1 or 2 fails, throw childish tantrums and insults and then resort to attacking the person and completely leaving the argument. So far you have predictably, being the ignorant idiot that you are done 1 and 2 already WITHOUT REFUTING A SINGLE EVIDENCE THAT I HAVE GIVEN OR CLAIM! Thanks for the entertainment though!

    • Rajesh Soman

      You are a sorry piece of life Shiva….You and your lil mind along with that of the likes of Mevani will what make it the sorriest country on earth…..!!

  • Milin Patel

    To be quite frank, this rebuttal was essentially trash. I was lmao reading this very poorly written piece. The author needs to start reading research papers…

    • GulliverFredrich2

      No this rebuttal is excellent for the layman and pretty much refutes the idiotic pseudo scientific idea of AIT/AMT. LOl it’s you that needs to get some working brain cells since you are too stupid to understand the whole summation of evidence INCLUDING GENETIC THAT REFUTE AIT/AMT!

      • Milin Patel

        If this is what you call a refutation, you need your brain checked (that is assuming your cranium is not empty). Just read the first paragraph of this so-called rebuttal. I almost died laughing, reading this shit:

        Joseph’s article is based on a peer-reviewed research paper [1], which, at first sight, appears to be an impeccable source. Being published in a peer-reviewed journal, however, does not automatically endow a research paper with credibility. There are big issues with the peer review, which is known to be a flawed process [2]. Nobel prize-winning papers have been known to be rejected by the peer review, while works of low quality are often accepted.

        Is not over yet… Then he goes on to say:

        Apart from the deficiencies in Silva et al.’s paper, there is also the fact that the paper’s results and conclusions have not been independently corroborated by other research teams (not surprising, considering it was published only three months ago). New scientific results are widely accepted only after they withstand rigorous testing and are confirmed independently by other research teams, as is borne out by numerous historical examples.

        Einstein’s announcement of the general theory of relativity in 1915, for example, did not cause any headlines until 1919, when the bending of light by the Sun’s gravitational field was first observed (simultaneously in Brazil and western Africa). Many more tests of general relativity were devised and performed during the past century, and the theory continues to be tested today. General relativity has passed all these tests without exception, which is why it is widely accepted as being correct.

        So I guess the author says that this research paper is flawed because other researchers did not confirm its findings? And that is the fault of Silva et al? LMFAO. What the fuck? This author needs a trip to the psychiatrist.

        Then the nutcase author refers to this article and claims that it debunks the AIT:

        https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access/the-major-ychromosome-haplotype-xi–haplogroup-r1a-in-eurasia-2161-1041-1000150.php?aid=52573

        But he ignore the fact that the data it uses for outside of India is outdated.

        I hope you get the point…

        • GulliverFredrich2

          And you failed to refute a single point that I made or the OP’s claims or the FACT THAT SILVA’S RESEARCH ARTICLES HAVE BEEN REFUTED AND DEBUNKED AND HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO HAVE MANY HOLES AND DISCREPANCIES IN THEM! Why don’t you ACTUALLY GO THROUGH BOTH THIS ARTICLE AND SILVA’S RESEARCH ARTICLE, WORD FOR WORD, AND THEN COME BACK AND WRITE A WORD FOR WORD REBUTTAL ENCOMPASSING BOTH ARTICLES; INSTEAD OF MAKING AND BRINGING UP FALSE INVALID APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISONS/ARGUMENTS INVOLVING SUBJECTS LIKE EINSTEIN AND HIS RESEARCH, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OR SUBJECT MATTER? WHAT YOU JUST DID THERE IS CALLED A “RED HERRING” LOGICAL ARGUMENT FALLACY, INCASE YOU NEVER TOOK A COLLEGE LEVEL PHILOSOPHY OR LOGIC COURSE EVER IN YOUR LIFE!

          Also Einstein was a serial fraud and a plagiarist, one of the most overrated
          and misunderstood people in the history of the world; truly a despicable
          person. He was a patent clerk who took a liking to others intellectual property. He
          simply took what he learned, absorbed and falsely passed it off as his own. He is perhaps one of the WORST INDIVIDUALS YOU CAN USE FOR IDIOTIC UNINFORMED IGNORANT APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISON ARGUMENTS LIKE THESE PROVING AUTHENTICITY!

          • Milin Patel

            “the FACT THAT SILVA’S RESEARCH ARTICLES HAVE BEEN REFUTED AND DEBUNKED AND HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO HAVE MANY HOLES AND DISCREPANCIES IN THEM!”

            No major holes in his research has been detected. Instead of relying on baseless articles like this, go read Silva’s actual research paper you nutcase…

            “Why don’t you ACTUALLY GO THROUGH BOTH THIS ARTICLE AND SILVA’S RESEARCH ARTICLE, WORD FOR WORD, AND THEN COME BACK AND WRITE A WORD FOR WORD REBUTTAL ENCOMPASSING BOTH ARTICLES; INSTEAD OF MAKING AND BRINGING UP FALSE INVALID APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISONS/ARGUMENTS INVOLVING SUBJECTS LIKE EINSTEIN AND HIS RESEARCH, WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OR SUBJECT MATTER?”

            Thanks for telling me that you did not even read Al Chavda’s article. I did not mention Einstein. Al Chavda’s article did. I was simply quoting from what he said… But again a brain dead moron like you would not realize this…

            “Also Einstein was a serial fraud and a plagiarist, one of the most overrated and misunderstood people in the history of the world; truly a despicable person. He was a patent clerk who took a liking to others intellectual property. He simply took what he learned, absorbed and falsely passed it off as his own. He is perhaps one of the WORST INDIVIDUALS YOU CAN USE FOR IDIOTIC UNINFORMED IGNORANT APPLES TO ORANGES COMPARISON ARGUMENTS LIKE THESE PROVING AUTHENTICITY!”

            So now you are opposing what Al Chavda said as he used Einstein in his argument, not me… Thanks for demolishing your own argument. Haha…

          • GulliverFredrich2

            “No major holes in his research has been detected. Instead of relying on baseless articles like this, go read Silva’s actual research paper you nutcase…”

            Yes there is lol, please provide me proof that there is no holes in his research and PLEASE ACTUALLY REFUTE THE OP ARTICLES POINTS! So far you haven’t except given me outdated sources!

            “Thanks for telling me that you did not even read Al Chavda’s article. I did not mention Einstein. Al Chavda’s article did. I was simply quoting from what he said… But again a brain dead moron like you would not realize this…”

            I did read the article, however YOU USED A SHITTY FALLACIOUS COMPARISON OF EINSTEIN TO THIS ARGUMENT WITH ME! And none of it made any sense whatsoever and was a red herring! Unfortunately you have never taken a college level logic class in your life!

            “So now you are opposing what Al Chavda said as he used Einstein in his argument, not me… Thanks for demolishing your own argument. Haha…”

            he he he he he! When all else fails, you resort to misconstruing arguments and spinning the other statements in order to attack the other person in ad hominem like manner. PLEASE ACTUALLY REFUTE THE ARGUMENTS WITH LEGITIMATE SOURCES, INSTEAD OF RESORTING TO HALF ASSED FALLACIOUS ARGUMENTS AND AD HOMINEM ATTACKS! Otherwise don’t waste my time!

  • Adi Jainam

    This website inform OLDEST R1a1 have discovered in Altai region (Central Asia/Russia/Mongolia steppe) from 24000 year old human skeleton.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

    • GulliverFredrich2

      Yeah this is false, the oldest R1a is found in India/South Asia. Central Asia and Mongolia were cold barren WASTELANDS during the last ice age inhospitable to humans just like Northern Europe was. I doubt this refutes the fact of Indian R1a origin when lineages are India/South ASIA are even older…

      • Milin Patel

        Is this a refutation to the article? Simply pathetic.

        • GulliverFredrich2

          Yeah no, it’s just me POSTING AND WRITING THE FACTS AND REALITIES WHICH REFUTE AND NEGATE THE ENTIRE PSEUDO-SCIENTIFIC IDIOTIC IDEA OF ARYAN MIGRATION/INVASION, AND WHICH KEEP GETTING PROVED AND VERIFIED TIME AND TIME AGAIN BY NEW ADDITIONAL RESEARCH! If the FACTS ARE TOO MUCH FOR YOUR IDIOTIC IGNORANT HEAD TO HANDLE THEN I’M SORRY YOU ARE TOO MUCH OF A DUMBASS AND TOO SEVERELY MENTALLY CHALLENGED TO PROVE ANY COUNTER ARGUMENTS YOU HAVE PUT FORTH HERE, WHICH YOU HAVE ALREADY PROVED!

          Sorry but I am right and you are wrong, I know the facts and you don’t, i’m informed and you are a complete ignoramus! The only pathetic moron here is you, AND YOU HAVE NOT MANAGED TO REFUTE THIS OR THE OTHER COUNTLESS OTHER ARGUMENTS I WROTE IN MY PAST POSTS, NOT A SINGLE ONE! Please stop posting and making yourself look like a bufoon and idiot time and time again! It gets too tiring to demolish and rip apart ignorant morons like yourself, where you have reading comprehension issues and can’t even use proper logic in any of your arguments!

          • Milin Patel

            Other than your senseless rant, you have spoken nothing. Provide the refutation to the AIT you fucking dimwit.

      • Adi Jainam

        Thanks for information…..!!!!
        but no consensus about R1a yet. would you please provide any proof regarding “the oldest R1a is found in India/South Asia.”…….??????

  • keval

    I am not sure even proposing AIT as hypothesis is appropriate. There are several possible scenario, which can result in the the observation that there is similarity in languages of Europe and India. Even if it it is accepted as the most preferred hypothesis, it is the responsibility of proponents to give reasons for such preferences. And then it is the responsibility of proponents to unambiguously demonstrate that there are sufficient evidences to disprove the null hypothesis (that AIT did not occur), and thus leaving them with no other alternative nut that AIT indeed occur. This is objective way of going around it.
    Here, those who are skeptical about AIT, are not required to prove anything, because they are not proposing any hypothesis. Most of us (except OIT proponents) are saying that we do not know what happened and how these languages are similar. All we are asking is to record all the observations, and accumulate more data, before we reach any hypothesis or test it.

  • keval

    Thanks Chavda Ji for enlightening article. It is very informative and addresses the propaganda.
    Any more information on the current state of investigation of Harappans skeleton/bones? There was a news that DNA samples had been collected in 2015
    http://www.hindustantimes.com/punjab/dna-samples-collected-from-harappan-era-human-skeletons/story-YrLqr6HiwQpNeJT2KEEcKM.html
    Why it is taking so long?

  • SuchindranathAiyer

    According to Shroutha Smartha Ithihasa: the Druhyus brought agriculture and architecture to the Indo Gangetic Plains from Mesopotamia. They were overlaid by the Aryas in the late Shukla Yajur Veda period. The Aryas exacted tribute by way of agricultural produce and construction. The Arya chieftains entered into the Treaty of Bharatha among themselves and with Arya Mihira (The Supreme Chief) across the Himalayas. This heralded the Joyous tines of the Krishna Yajur Veda that replaced the Raja Sooya of the Shukla Yajur Veda with the Ashwa Medha Yajna.

    It is in the nature of the adversarial and war mongering latter day Indians, who have waged the civil war decreed by the casteist and communalist Indian Constitution for seventy years, to find the notion of cultural co-existence of Aryas and Druhyus inconceivable.

    How can genetic theory debunk a wrong theory. Aryas were never a race. Aryas were mutli racial but uni cultural with the religion of Brahmanism and the law of Dharma. They roamed from present day East Europe to Mongolia in the Rik Vedic Period. In the Shukla Yajur Veda period they raided surrounding agricultural societies for food and wives. They settled in the Indo Gangetic plain heralding the Krishna Yajur Veda period and the treaty of Bharatha. After the war of Kurukshetra when most Arya Males were killed, they intermarried with the Druhyus (Druids, Dravids, Dasyus) and became one people commencing the Atharva Veda period, pantheism and the first wave of Puranas.

    All allusions to an Aryan Invasion theory are baseless because there could not have been any “invasion” when there were no “nations” Believe it or not, they did not even have passports, visas and customs in those days(!). OIT (Out of India Theory” is equally absurd). The Indo-Gangetic Plain was simply too salubrious and Fecund for anybody to migrate away except under duress

    The truth is that Aryans were multi racial in the Rik Vedic Period (taming of fire and horse) and roamed, as pastoral nomads will, the grass lands from East Prussia to Mongolia and were united by the pre-Vedic religion of Brahmanism (The Prathamo Upanishad) and Constitution (Swasthika). During difficult times, they raided neighbouring agricultural civilizations for food and women and sometimes settled there, as they did the Indo-Gangetic Plain towards the end of the Shukla Yajur Veda Period (invention of Archery and the use of horse drawn chariots in war fare) heralding the dawn of the Krishna Yajur Veda period. The plenty from the Agriculture of the Indo Gangetic Plain and the labour of the Druhyus (Dasyus) or Druids (Dravids) led to the decadence of the Sama Veda which gave birth to music.

    After the civil war referred to in Vyasa’s “mahabharatha” Aryan hegemony was demolished as nearly 8 out of ten Aryan males were killed in the war. The Atharva Veda Period began. Druids and the Aryans intermarried and the agricultural, temple worship and architectural technologies of the Druids entered the Atharva Veda through the Aagama (that which came from outside) Shasthra. The Thraithreya Upanishad was created as a compendium for the use of Ritviks of all the Vedas and Sanskrtized the Druhyu deities through a process of amalgamation.

    The Druids entered the Guru Kulas as the Fourth Varna of Shudra with full Varna mobility therafter until Ashoka brought an end to the Vedic period, dismantled the Guru Kulas, destroyed the Temples and persecuted Brahmanism. This brought an end to Varna mobility.

    There were two great migrations of Aryans out of India. The first, after the great Civil War of Kurkukshetra when few Aryans survived and the transition from Sama Veda to Atharva Veda began with the inter marriage between the Aryas (originally from Central Asia) and the Dhruhyus who brought architecture and agriculture from Mesopotamia) with the Aaagama (that which came from outside) Shastras becoming Sanskritised, went as far as the Balkans and the Baltic.

    Then, during Ashoka’s destruction of Temples, Gurukulas and persecution of Brahmanism which brought an end to the Vedic period the migrations were largely to the South and the South East. Adi Shankara’s ancestors were among them. A fourth migration occurred by means of Islamic slave caravans from which the ancestors of present day Romanis escaped. The ongoing migration to escape persecution by the Indian Republic since 1947 is too well known to mention here. As for the Out of India Theory: The Indo Gangetic Plains were too salubrious and fecund for any who came here from the harsher Central Asia or Eastern Europe to return other than by duress. (Or for anybody to migrate out of)

    Adi Shankara, whose ancestors had fled Ashoka’s persecution to the deep south, revived Sanskrit, the Vedas, the Brahma Sutras and amalgamated the Aryan Rudra-Shankara with the Druid Shiva, The Aryan Narayana with the Druid Vishnu, the Aryan Sandhya-Savitri-Gayatri-Saraswathi and the Druid Lakshmi-Parvathi-Lalitha, with the tribal-negroid Kali; with the tribal-negroid Ganapathi, and with the Aryan Sun (or the living idol of Brahma) into the Panchayathana (Five Deities) . Not all subscribed to this, and various archetypal religions and their derivatives from human sacrifice, necrophagy and cannibalism to Vasihnavism, Shaivism and Shaktaism continued to flourish to this day.

    Much of the mythology (Puranas) was born in two phases. The first to reconcile and integrate religions during the Atharva Veda period and then to reconcile and integrate the Panchayathana. They carry shades of religious competitiveness and flights of fancy.

    The politics is evident in the absurd politics in the Puranas. Here you have Vishnu defeating Shiva, there you have Vishnu worshiping Shiva ceaselessly to prevent the end of creation, There you have Shiva plucking off Brahma’s “Fifth Head” (ROFL) for “lying” about Shiva’s infinite size, and elsewhere you have all the three prostrating before Lalitha Parameshwari to save them from demons of their own creation. . Puranas, like fables, were used to educate children by mothers and grand mothers, before the boys underwent Upanayana (re-opening of the eyes at age 7 or 9) and went to the Guru Kula in Arya Varsha for a Vedic Education. The Puranas and anything in Shloka form may be written

    Unfortunately, with the State sponsored pogrom to eradicate Brahmanism since 1921,, there are few people who have been classically educated in the Shastras, the Vedas and the Shroutha Smartha Ithihasa. The “West” including the British, Vivekananda and others borrowed what they could from the Shroutha Smartha Ithihasa, removed what was politically inconvenient and found archaeological and linguistic evidence for what remained. What can one say of an India where Parliament stood up in one accord to erase 1948 newspaper cartoons from Government approved and published School History Text Books as recently as 2012?

    • Karan Gupta

      Please take your “Capt. Vadakayil” school of propaganda and lies to where it belongs – Dustbin. You and your ilks suffers from delusion and inferiority complex. You are the prime example of what Racists are. You show the way on how wrongly the Vedas can be read with absurd interpretations and finding History in Vedas when there is none. Vedas is no history book, it is a book of “Eternal Knowledge”, a book of Universal Laws that bind entire universe, it is a book which predates History and Human, it is eternal and hence the question of Vedas containing history is biggest misinterpretation of vedas

      • SuchindranathAiyer

        What is your Pravara? Which Guru Kula did you go to? Which is your primary Veda? From which Kula did you learn the oral Ithihasa?

        • Karan Gupta

          What was the Pravara of Rishi Valmiki, what was the Pravara of Ved Vyas, what was the Pravara of Aitareya Rishi who wrote Aitareya Brahman, what was the Pravara of Ailush Rishi or Satyakaam Jaabaal who wrote Jabala Upanishad.
          You are a blot on DHARMA/Vedas, you signifies what ADHARMA is. You are an example of what Casteist Bigot Anarya are.
          Guess what the unadulterated Manusmriti has a verse for you.
          Manu Smriti 3.109 clearly states that one who eats by glorifying his Gotra or Family is considered an eater of his own vomit. Thus, as per the Manu Smriti that the self-proclaimed birth-based Brahmins or upper-castes believe in, the very act of glorifying their lineage or gotra to demand special privileges makes them deserving of condemnation.

          And fyi I went Gurukul Kalwa. Have read all four Vedas. And I know Vedas doesn’t contain history, to think Vedas contain history is to be ignorant and a fool.
          Finally my Guru doesn’t care what family I belong to unless and until my intention if pure.
          Get over your casteism brother because Karma doesn’t forgive anyone, more so who discriminate people who are all part of Eternal, Omnipresent Ishwar/AUM/Brhmn. Aatma doesn’t have gender neither caste

          • SuchindranathAiyer

            Romantic Literateurs like Valmiki and Vyasa are not scholars of Vedas or Ithihasas. Nor are Puraniks (mythologists) capable of delivering History.

            It is forbidden to write anything in Manthra form. This is why during the Atharva Veda period, Vyasa invented the Shloka form for his path breaking Ramayana. So what Four Vedas might you have read? William Hunter’s? Ambedkar’s? Vivekananda’s? Pollock’s? Donniger’s? Are you or your “Guru Kula” aware that the Rik Veda itself, in it oral form, are held distributed among several kulas and gothras and will take more than 20,000 hours to chant if they are all brought together? (I am a Krishna Yajur Vedi with just a smattering of the other Vedas that touch upon Ithihasa). Are you aware that the Prathamo Upanishad (from which the the notions of Karma and Dharma originate) and the Arya Shastra (the Primary Constitutional laws and treaties of Arya Varsha and Bharatha Varsha) that precede the Rik Veda are held and transferred orally along a patrilineal line only among Shroutha Smartha Arya Btahmanas of direct descent from the Saptha Rishis?

            Your theories and ejaculations are the product of British created “Hindoo” mythology and indoctrination intended to eradicate the hereditary education and law giving priesthood and the Vedic tradition since 1921. The British succeeded beyond their wildest dreams thanks to their stooges who took over their mantle after 1947.

            From your comment I see that you are impervious to knowledge as you have had a Secular Rapeublican education and are delusional. You are probably brought up in the Urdu (Hindi) tradition and while you cite Valmiki or Vyasa, I doubt you have ever read them in Sanskrit. Tulsi Ramayana would be the limit of your scholoarship, if that..

            I consider this discussion concluded.

          • Karan Gupta

            Maharishi Valmiki, Maharishi Ved Vyas, Maharishi Aitareya are not scholars but fake PONGA Brahmins like you are scholars LOL. Hallucinating like Muhammad. A Ponga Brahmin like you who believes Vedas contains History is commenting on Vedas. You are good in only commenting on Pislam and Christianity where you can take your RACIST VIEWS. Dharma doesn’t need you nor your Casteists, ADHARMIC views. I know what your f**king hereitary education produced MORONS like Ravish Kumar Panday, N Ram, Sitaram Yechury, Malini Parthaswamy, Mahesh Bhatt, Arundhatti Roy, Mamta Baneerjee, Ruchika Sharma, Vinod Sharma.
            I and all well meaning Dharmics/Hindu will any day take so called non Hereditary Narendra Damodardas Modi, Babasaheb Ambedkar, Swami Ramdev than Ponga Brahmins listed above.
            With hell your so called hereditary/casteism, it is anything but DHARMA

          • SuchindranathAiyer

            You are obviously an Ambedkarite Dalit masquerading as an Arya Vaishya. Your comment clearly establishes your lack of breeding, education and culture. Your Pravara is probably a Motherass slum or a Lucknow Tawaif Khana.

            “Caste” comes from the Portuguese word “Casta” . There is no equivalent in any Indian language other than Hinglish or Hindi, the latter being the Bazaar and Brothel language Urdu written in Devanagari to appease the Moslems and their illegitimate “Hindoo” offspring in an extended paroxysm of Gandhism.

            Caste was used by the British to “divide to rule” and has been enshrined, together with communalism, in the Indian Constitution that was plagiarized from the Government of India Act (a 1935 House of Lords confection) duly modified by Sir Maurice Gwyer, the then Chief Justice of Delhi, for the Cambridge, Columbia, Elphinstone, Oxford, Presidency, St Stephens and Madras Christian “educated” PANGOLIN*s for what remained of India after 1947 and the unfortunate Princely States several of which had been previously prosperous and well governed and now fell to the loot, rapine and plunder of the Indian Republic..

            “Hindoo” is a legal fiction created by the British in 1921, when they coined the word “Dalit” for those who did not adhere to Aryan Brahmin law and so created a lumpen to swamp the congregational temple welfare system and confiscated the temples, lands, water bodies, educational institutions, treasure and religious freedoms of the Savarna Arya People of Dharma. The object was to crush the law and education giving Brahmins so as to destroy all resistance to alien religions and ideologies. This was a pogrom that originated in the 1857 rebellion and was motivated by Islamic “Taqiya” that the Brahmins were behind the uprising and the violence, which the British believed and made a pillar of state policy as a political convenience analogous to Adolf Hitler’s persecution of the Jews.. In 1959, The PANGOLIN*s followed through and repeated this British style persecution in residual India and the former princely states that had fallen, unwittingly, into their maws.

            The word “Hindoo” is an appellation that was used by the Persians, during their “Vedai” period, which preceded their “Avesthan” (Zoroastrian) period to describe their co coreligionists of the Indus valley. It was used by the barbaric, uncultured and disinformed Moslem invaders to describe all who lived beyond the Indus and deprived of the protection of law and humanity as “Kuffars” by Islam. The British, as heirs, successors and assigns of the Nawab of Arcot and the Mughals resurrected the label to their political convenience.

            You are a waste of time.You may rant with yourself as you are impervious to education. Your proper place is in the Indian Rajya Sabha or as member of the Higher judiciary. Begone charlatan. remain within your own class and slum. There you may be appreciated and even receive a Padma Award of note. Here, you will be ignored henceforth.

            *Note: PANGOLIN: An enemy of India who believes in inequality under law, exceptions to the rule of law and persecution of some for the benefit of others. At present, the sole purpose of the Indian Republic, Constitutional or otherwise, is to pamper and provide for certain constitutionally preferred sections of society who the British found useful to hold and exploit India at the cost of those who the British hated and persecuted. The Pangolin is a creature that is unique to India and feeds on ants that are known in nature to be industrious and hard working if not quite as fruitful as bees who flee to better climes. (PANGOLIN is an acronym for the Periyar-Ambedkar-Nehru-Gandhi-Other (alien) Religions-Communist Consensus that usurped the British Mantle and has worn it with elan to loot, plunder, and rape India since 1921 and re write History and laws to their exclusive benefit since 1947)

          • Karan Gupta

            “Aryan Brahmical Laws” LOL. You are seriously delusional and suffer COLONIAL hangover. Cite me one MANTRA from VEDAS where the so called word “aryan” is there. This itself exposes your sham. You don’t evn have a fraction of Knowledge on Vedas or Vedic Sanskrit.
            What does “Varna” mean? Your small Casteist/Racist brain won’t be able to comprehend perhaps because of your genetic disorder like your brothers/sisters Malini Parthaswamy, N Ram, Jayalalittha.
            “Varna” means color, properties, qualities. Varna is not even classification of Humans but classification of “Gunas”/Qualities/Properties present in every system same as Sat,Rajas,Tamas are qualities. Of a self Enlightened being his/her head/mouth is Brahmin, his/her Arms are Kshtriya, his/her stomach/thighs are Vaishya, and his/her feet/legs are Shudra. Each of these varna are present in all Humans and they signify the purest of respective qualities.
            But since when buffoon and Casteists bigot like you were able to understand Vedas. As such you are a blot on Dharma.
            As far as Hindu/Hinduism is considered name doesn’t matter content matters. If today buffoon like you start calling Sun as moon it won’t turn cold it will remain as bright and hot as it has since time. So no matter what we are called Arya, Hindu, Dharmics or something else we remain the same.
            Very soon Hindus/Dharmics will kick castiest bigot like you from the map of India.

          • SuchindranathAiyer

            Stick to your slum and class. You may find a foil there. If you want to enter discussions with your elder and betters, first get yourself educated, cultured and straightened out.

  • Pingali Gopal

    Very nicely written article. The Hindu should have cross checked the article. The left wing seems to have taken a hold of the magazine. The rebuttal is very effective. Irfan Habib had questioned the existence of River Saraswati very recently and Hindu projected it as great proof, whereas Michel Danino, author of The Lost River which was clear in the proof of the river was hardly given any space for a rebuttal.

  • Amit

    All stage by britisher 300 yrs back to divide north Indian and south indian. Had it been true then why we have temples across the south indian and north india or hindus goddess. Does north India so called aryans even have a god by that name?? hahaha .. loard Natraja is lord Shiva

  • Swami

    Very interesting. I thought from Tony Joseph’s article that the matter was settled.
    Tony, why peddle opinion as fact?!

    • Zeeshan27

      Matter is settled not because of Tony Joseph article in Hindu but becaue of the reserach of authors he quotes. Tony Joseph is not even a scientists!

      But it is about time for this Out of India (OIT) rebuttal brigade to start reading the recent genetics articles in conjunction with already existing archeological, and linguistic evidences.

      Aryan invasion/migration did happen, time to accept it folks!

      Now If you disagree then prove through original research how Sanskrit is the root langauge of all IE languages and how it propogated out of India to Europe!

      • Ramesh Agarwal

        Zeeshan27,

        You type: “Now If you disagree then prove through original research how Sanskrit is the root langauge of all IE languages and how it propogated out of India to Europe!” (sic)

        Your attempt at legitimising Comparative Linguistics as some sort of a “hard science” is interesting, as you seem to make it a case that it has to be either a) Sanskrit is part of Indo-European language scheme or b) Sanskrit itself is the Proto-Indo-European language. There could be other possibilities too, do you agree? Before you transfer the burden of legitimisation of IE and PIE, whose burden is this anyway and why is it the burden of anyone questioning the scientific validity of PIE, to prove Sanskrit is the PIE?

        Have you considered these statements by James Clackson: “When does a linguist decide that there is enough material to relate a language to the IE family? There is no absolute set of criteria beyond the general rule that the evidence must convince both the individual linguist and the majority of the scholarly community.” Clackson, James (2007), Indo-European Linguistics – An Introduction, Cambridge Textbooks in Linguistics, p. 3

        Clearly, for even scholars unquestionably from within this domain (Comparative Linguistics) itself, ‘there is no absolute set of criteria’ to decide that there is enough material to relate a language to the IE family – for example, “fitting” Sanskrit to IE” – and seems to (worryingly) legitimise view of ‘majority of the scholar community’ as a way to prove/disprove anything.

        Now to answer your demand for proof ‘through original research how Sanskrit is the root langauge of all IE languages’, and assuming your demand is genuinely “to seek knowledge” and not as a matter of diatribe, you may want to start with scholarship of Nicholas Kazanas (if not already done so).

        Good luck.

      • ManipuriSingh

        Hey Zeeshan, did you even bother to read the above article before spewing your venom, you menal retard? The author – who happens to be a scientist – has actually proved the OIT with numerous references.

        Get over your fake, murderous religion and try to become a human being for a change.

        • Zeeshan27

          It is you who are showing your mental retardness. What has a physicist anything to do with archeology, linguistics, and genetics ?

          There is no proof for Out of India theory, whatsoever.

  • PS

    A tight Slap on the faces of Commie Excrementalists ! The Reds became Redder ! 😂

  • Zeeshan27

    The proponents of Out of India theory (OIT) need to get out of this perennial rebuttal mode and start producing some original research to substantiate their own theory, of which hardly any exits to date.

    I agree Tony Joseph may not be the most qualified person to write this article so it is advisable to read the original papers he refers to. However, his conclusions are inline with the conclusions of the original papers.

    So, OIT people need to show their own research instead of trying to find loopholes in other people research. For example, I completely disagree with this rebuttal because he has not provided any original work to support it. Show some original work as to why the Aryans did not come to India but it is India which spread the Indo European language to Europe.

    Tall order, if you must ask!

    • GulliverFredrich2

      Oh that’s easy to prove, Indic and Indian languages like Sanskrit is the oldest and biggest/most complex of the Indo-European family of languages, older then Lithuanian and Avestan, proving an Out of India origin, India/Southern Asia was the first place that out of Africa migrants stopped to before they populated the rest of Eurasia as proved by national geographic geneticist Spencer wells, the biggest and highest frequencies of the R1a genetic haplogroup associated with the so called Indo-European peoples and their spread is found in India/South Asia outside of Europe and infact overshadows Europe in frequency and diversity proving an Indic origin for it, Indian albinos look exactly like various White European ethnic groups, there is no evidence of eurasian kurgan style tombs/burial mounds or corded ware pottery or battle axes o found in Indus Valley sites refuting an Aryan migration idea, no Vedic style fire altars or symbolism is found outside of India/South Asia and not anywhere in Central Asia or Siberia (the homeland of the proto-Indo-European peoples) during the Indus Valley civilization period, the migration of steppe origin disease carrying animals like the black rat show their origins in India/South Asia before they reached Europe, pictures of domesticated horses and existence of native horses in India/South Asia have been found in ancient Indian caves refuting the idea of horse bringing migrants, no mention of an singular “Aryan race” or “Aryans” in actual Indian ancient texts unless they are false and corrupted translations by recent European colonial narrative interpretations, no records by neighboring civilizations (Egypt, Mesopotamia/Sumeria etc) of an large scale migration of any kind to India/South Asia in their records since they were large trading partners with IVC, logistical and geographical impossibilities for a large scale migration to have taken place to India/South Asia in ancient times since India/South Asia is surrounded by nearly impassable large scale geographical and regional barriers like mountains and deserts that would have made any large scale ancient migration impossible by steppe peoples since geographical barriers hindered the spread of corded ware “Aryan” peoples in Europe etc etc etc….

      AIT belongs in the dustbin of history!

      • Zeeshan27

        Two simple points to refute you:
        1. Vedic Sanskrit has substrate component from Indian languages like Munda, Burushakhi and Dravdian, there are over 300 words from these languages. Now if Sanskrit propagated out of India and into Europe such that is the basis of all Indo European languages, then European language must contain at least some of the Munda/Burushakhi/Dravidian, yet they don’t contain any at all. Second thing found in Vedic Sanskrit but missing in Indo European are retroflexes. Retroflexes are from India.

        2. R1a common among north Indians and central asians are hardly found in Europe. Indo European speaking population of Europe, 60% of them carry R1b, that they got from the Steppe region.

        • GulliverFredrich2

          This doesn’t refute my claims at all and it doesn’t negate the countless other proofs and evidence that I’ve offered, all of which refute and disprove AMT and none of which are refuted by your two irrelevant and weak points. Chinese, Japanese, Finno-Uggric/Magyar, Ancient Greek, Vasconic, various European etc languages all have Munda strains and visible “Afro-Asiatic” language influences, and the some of these languages are very very far from the “Afro-Asiatic languages” geographic wise, and yet still retain their visible influences. Still doesn’t prove anything, nor does it prove that AMT occurred.

          Languages are not exact racial markers either, and change with time, for example, a Black Jamaican and a Chinese American speaks English in their respective countries and adopt it as their own language, does not by blood indicate that they are White Germanic Anglo-Saxons or bred with someone of that extraction, and neither does adoption of languages or linguistic terms indicate or imply admixture or migration all the time. So your first point is pretty much insignificant and irrelevant.

          Secondly R1b is not a racial “Indo-European marker” if we are to go by applying the Indo-European languages as “racial markers”; R1b in Europe is associated with the pre-Indo-European Bell Beaker and hunter gather settlers of Europe, and was there before the prot-Indo-European peoples migrated to Europe from Central Asia and Siberia. R1b is an Afro-Asiatic genetic haplogroup, that originated in Africa and the Middle East before it traveled to Europe from those regions. R1a is the so called Indo-European/Aryan genetic haplogroup and only recently arrived to Europe, out of all the genetic haplogroups that reached Europe and was the latest to arrive to Europe.

          R1a carrying proto-Indo-European peoples only arrived to Europe AFTER R1b carrying groups and other genetic pre-IE groups reached Europe, via cultures and peoples like the Corded Ware battle axe people. It took nearly hundreds of years to almost thousands of years for R1a to spread throughout Europe and for Europe to become “Indo-Europeanized”, because of geographical barriers like large scale uncultivated forests and mountain passes like the alps. It took nearly 15-30 years for IE peoples to spread from a small area encompassing Ukraine to an area like Denmark in ancient times. And even to this day, R1b is the primary genetic haplogroup of Western Europe which just adds to the unrealism of AMT. Since India/South Asia is even more burdened with a wide variety of geographical and physical barriers from the outside, then Europe is, this makes an Aryan migration unfeasible and unrealistic.

          The almost virtual absence of R1b in South Asia/India except in recent pocket populations negates any ancient migration from Europe to India, and the fact that India/South Asia has the highest genetic diversity of the R1a genetic haplogroup in the entire world where nearly everyone caries it there, and the fact that India/South Asia was the first place that OOA migrants stopped to before they populated the rest of Eurasia proper, prove that R1a originated in South Asia/India before it reached Europe. Which means that the so called Indo-European/Aryan peoples originated in India/South Asia before they migrated to Europe, and there was an out of India migration of so called proto-Indo-European R1a carrying peoples.

          This is further proved by the fact that Sanskrit is bigger and more complex then all of the Indo-European languages in Europe and is older then Avestan; when you compare the oldest IE language in Europe like Lithuanian with Sanskrit, not even Lithuanian comes close to the antiquity and complexity of Sanskrit, once again proving an Indic origins for so called Indo-European peoples. Then there is also the fact that there are R1a carrying individuals in Europe that do not speak Indo-European languages (I.E Hungarians, Finns, various Turkic peoples), which again negates an AM occurring in the first place for an origin of Indo-Aryan languages in South Asia/India.

          Then is also the fact that the oldest Indo-European speaking populations that appear with a white phenotype, in the Middle East and South Asia, such as the Yazidi’s, the Druze, and the Kalash & Nuristani; show stronger linguistic, genetic, and historical ties to a place like India/South Asia, then they do to Europe, which prove that there never was an AMT but an Out of India migration for White proto-Indo-European type peoples.

          Lastly there is no “Dravidian race” and no such references or concepts to such a archaic and artificial idea existed before the British arrived to India/South Asia, which shows that the entire idea and concept was created by them. The whole idea of a “Dravidian race” was coined and created by a British Christian evangelist named Robert Caldwell, who wanted to segment and divide India as per the interests of the British colonials, and convert Indians to christanity via the falsity of this idea of a “Dravidian race”. However “Dravida” simply means and refers to the land “where the three seas meet”, and not an actual race of people in ancient Indian texts. Indians all over the India/South Asia share genetic ties and overlap irrespective of regional differences which has been proven by genetic studies as of recent. The whole Aryan-Dravidian divide was an artificial construct and idea concocted by Western Europeans in order to divide India/South Asia, just like they did elsewhere in the world where civilizations predated civilization in Europe.

          • Zeeshan27

            Wrong again. R1b people migrated from Steppe region into Europe as the third wave of migration into Europe, after the hunter-gatherer and the near-east farmers.
            This debate has been settled by genetics, read the 2016 paper in nature.
            http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14317.html

          • GulliverFredrich2

            This debate has not been settled by genetics, R1b has virtually little to no presence in India/South Asia, therefore this throws the whole migration theory into a tail spin. R1b subclades in Africa and Afro-Asiatic groups in the Middle East predate ones that arrived to Central Asia, and is still existent there independent of Euro-Asians; so yes I am right.

            Also this article once again does not negate my points and conjectures, which is that there was no Aryan migration to India and that the Indo-European languages originate from India/Southern Asia and Sanskrit is the oldest and most complex of this language family. This is an article about the peopling of Europe, not whether or not there was an Aryan migration or origin for the origin of Indo-European family of languages, All the evidence pin points to no such event ever occurring in the first place.

            Also the flaw in this article you cited, is that it claims to postulate that the modern White European population are actually direct descendants of the these three ancient populations of Europe. However, any basic study of European history, shows that these three populations have nothing to do with modern Europeans except for isolate groups, because of the factors of multiple migrations from Siberia and Central Asia, Africa and the Middle East to Europe from the Neolithic period to the Medieval and classical period in Europe; all of which completely changed the genetic and demographic makeup of Europe, from ancient times to now; and also due to the factors of disease/plague outbreaks, wars/civil wars, ecological/climatic shifts, natural disasters, demographic decline periods, population migrations and movements etc; all of which contributed to a large scale population shift in such a manner, that there is no way that these three ancient pops in this article would have anything to do with modern White Europeans.

  • Anadi Mishra

    Divide and Rule policy is still implemented by Communists

  • kalyanaraman

    A very lucid and brilliant rebuttal by AL Chavda. Provides an object lesson for science reporters.

  • Aarudraa

    Mr. A.L. Chavda is well aware that The Hindu is biased tpewards the left and as such promotes such ideas,messages which it feels espouses the cause of the left ideologists in India. It is therefore,no surprise that it actively propagates the myth of Aryan invasion of India. It suits them perfectly. Through this theory,they can poison the minds of dalits,tribals and scheduled class (to some extent or brainwashing them to Marxism-Maoism) teaching them that it is the brahminical tyranny that sucks their sweat and blood and exploits them to crush their lives at the altar of the bourgeois exploiters. And it is up to them to join the armed revolution when the time is ripe and establish an egalitarian Marxist society. Strangely two other categories are also subscribing to this Aryan invasion theory and brahminical tyranny on the down trodden dalits,Adivasis,tribals and other vulnerable sections are the western evangelists and islamist jihadis. Thus,the left,evangelists and jihadis are all united to convert the vast Hindu population of this country to their fold.For them,the Aryan Invasion theory is the only possible weapon to invade and conquer Hindus.

  • Gould

    I need to re-quote my Grandma for the “age of science”:- be ware of bhondu(pretend/fake)-scholars !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • Jana krish

    If you need to write anything for the Hindu, it has to be approved by the Vatican…the office here in chennai of the Hindu is only a delivery boy…

  • Vijay kumar

    You too flawed Mr Chavda, The Hindu is not a venerable or eminent org. Since pre-independence, they slow poisoned indian readers with commies and congis negative agendas in an affluent and borrowed english language !

  • Vijay kumar

    Also, research papers written, 1. Out of compulsion and 2. Out of passion. Silva’s & Joseph’s is the former one.

  • sudhirb

    Wonder how many people know the Manu’s definition of an Arya, frequently quoted by Swami Vivekananda. Once one understands an Arya, the debate will stop. Aryans were inhabiting Brahmavarta, the Vedic state of oldest seers like Manu, Bhrigu who composed Vedic scriptures, before next generations migrated to other places.

    • Karan Gupta

      The racists Western Hinduphobic Indologists sees RACE everywhere. Even a layman in Vaidik Sanskrit know Arya, Das, Dasyus, Rakshak, Anarya are no race but adjectives used to signify properties/qualities. There is no word “Aryan” in Vedas but “Arya” which is a “Quality/Title” which means “Noble”/”Righteous Person”. “Dasyus/Daas” is again Quality/Title in Vedas(according to Vedic Sanskrit, over the time Vedic Sanskrit also changed with time and meaning of certain words changed or expanded. Daas in later times started to mean servants) meaning person with destructive tendencies/qualities ie Terrorist, Criminal, anti social or looters.
      There are Mantra in Vedas where it shows an Arya who turns to crime becomes a Dasyus/Daas while a Daas/Dasyu who sheds crimes and accepts righteousness becomes an Arya
      Vedas talks of no race or history. DHARMICS/VEDAS must be read and understood differently than Abrahmics which are rooted in History and Racism(races). Reference
      http://agniveer.com/vedas-and-daas/
      http://agniveer.com/vedas-dasyu-hinduism/

  • Megh

    Thank you A.L. Chavda, and IndiaFacts, for publishing this “rebuttal”.

  • kumar

    Excellent rebuttal to the malicious lies by China Controlled Commies.

    • Anirudh Vikram

      You are barking up the wrong tree. The real disinformation agents are ensconced in Vatican & the venerable universities of the West.