The Scientific Dating of the Ramayana

Did Rama exist? A billion Hindus believe he did and an unbroken tradition of Rama…

Did Rama exist? A billion Hindus believe he did and an unbroken tradition of Rama worship has continued for thousands of years in India. Rama is also a hero in Indonesia (despite it being a Muslim country), Thailand and in several other South East Asian countries. Without the weight of historical tradition, the Ramayana would have been swept away by the tidal waves of conquests that India suffered over a period of 1300 years.

A Ramayana ballet from Indonesia

But there are others who argue that there is no proof Rama lived. These are the same people who will happily agree that a child can be conceived without human conception. Despite the overwhelming scientific evidence produced by the likes of Charles Darwin, they believe the earth was created in 4004 BC and that a certain being called god created the world in seven days. (Or was that six? Yes, he was so powerful he needed to rest on Sunday.) They won’t question any Christian or Muslim myths – howsoever outrageous, bizarre or downright funny – but Hindu traditions are open season for them. They want you to produce Rama’s birth certificate, and chances are even if you somehow get a copy, they will ask for the doctor who attested it.

The British and their acolytes like Max Muller are originally responsible for the prevailing stereotypes about Indian history, religion and culture. Muller, who was in the pay of the East India Company, went so far as to describe the Vedas as childish poetry.

In her History of India, academician Romilla Thapar describes the celebrated Rig-Veda as “primitive animism”; the Mahabharata as the glorification of a “local feud” between two Aryan tribes; the Ramayana as “a description of local conflicts between the agriculturists of the Ganges Valley and the more primitive hunting and food-gathering societies of the Vindhyan region” (sic).

But the Ramayana, Mahabharata, and other ancient Indian texts like the Vedas, Puranas and Upanishads are true records of Indian history, interwoven with mythology, philosophy and spirituality. Just because they talk about battles between gods and demons is no reason to dismiss their accounts of kings and other contemporary developments as mere story telling. It is indeed amazing that the Bible mentions numerous fantastic events like the Great Deluge, Pillar of Fire, instantaneous healing of cut-off ears, is full of sexual imagery including incest and is yet considered a history of Christianity and Jews, while the ancient Indian texts are considered “mere” mythology.

The unfortunate part is that many secularists, brown sahibs and Macaulayites – a class of Indians who are English in outlook and Indian only in looks – readily agree that India’s epics are pure mythology and gleefully bow down to the verdict passed by their former white colonial masters. In their view, because the British averred that Indian epics do not pre-date the Christian Bible, then it must necessarily be true.

Science comes to history’s aid

Science, however, is not parochial. Just like the laws of motion cannot be questioned, scientific evidence is incontrovertible. Science also has a habit of shaking up the deepest foundations if they rest on a bed of lies. Catholic Christians – or more accurately their boss, the Pope – had to admit at long last in 2009 that the Earth was not the centre of the universe, a discovery made by Galileo 400 years ago (and which the Hindus knew thousands of years before that).

Ruins of Dwarka, underwater at the Gulf of Khambhat

In the late 1980s divers of the National Institute of Oceanography, Goa, led by leading archaeologist S.R. Rao discovered Krishna’s sunken capital Dwarka, precisely at the place in Gujarat where Krishna mentioned it was located. Palaces, pillars, fort walls, a port, anchors and various artefacts have been discovered. This is among the rare instances where a historical fact has been established through scientific methods. It establishes the fact that Krishna existed. So the Mahabharata was true, and since it mentions incidents from the Ramayana, then doesn’t it prove that Rama also existed?

Also, literary references to the characters from the Ramayana Era provide limits after which the Ramayana could not have occurred. For example, Valmiki is referred to in the Taittiriya Brahmana (dated to 4600 BCE) and therefore Ramayana must have been written before the Taittiriya Brahmana was composed.

Follow the clues

The wonderful thing about the Ramayana is that when Valmiki wrote the epic, he made it idiot-proof. (For fun let’s assume Valmiki being a prescient sage knew that secularists, communists, India haters, British invaders and Macaulayites would exist in the future and try to run down his historical opus.) He packed so much information about the various planetary positions of those days, the geography of the areas mentioned in the epic, the seasonal events, and about the genealogy of various kings that modern astronomers and scientists can have a crack at the dates on which those events occurred.

Genealogical links and archaeological findings provide clues to the dating of the Ramayana era. According to journalist and author B.R. Haran, “In no other nation and no other religion in the world, true history is so meticulously documented, supported by umpteen evidences. Any ancient history is supported with evidences of architecture and literature. The Sangam literature is the documented evidence for the existence and ruling of Tamil kings, and similarly, Ramayana and Mahabharata are the documented evidence for Rama and Krishna. Questioning Ramayana and Mahabharata is like questioning the very existence of India.”

Archaeological and literary methods can only provide approximate datelines. For determining the precise time of the Ramayana events, scientists use astronomical calculations. Several of India’s leading astronomers, astrologers and retired nuclear scientists have come together to establish the dates of India’s ancient history.

Note that the “Hindu epics are myth” brigade is led by communist academicians who have zero interest in the truth, Nehru family carpet baggers, Christian freeloaders who have penetrated Indian cultural outfits, and Indians who have slept with their Anglo-American PhD guides to become, in Arun Shourie’s words, “eminent scientists”.

Dr Raja Ramanna

On the other hand, most of those trying to prove the epics are history are scientists. For instance, at a global colloquium (http://ignca.nic.in/nl002503.htm) jointly organised by The Mythic Society, Bangalore, Indira Gandhi National Centre for the Arts and Sir Babasaheb (Umakanth Keshav) Apte Smarak Samithi Trust on January 5 and 6, 2003, the late Dr Raja Ramanna, the father of the Indian nuclear bomb, said the “best clock for dating was the sky itself and the position of stars”.

These scientists are studying facts, they are looking back in time at precession or the position of stars. They are not regurgitating the discredited writings of Karl Marx, the racist German who supported English rule over India. So you judge for yourself who is speaking the truth and who’s peddling snake oil.

Dating the Ramayana

So how is astronomical dating done? Historian Dr P.V. Vartak says: “Sage Valmiki has recorded the dates of events in detail, albeit by describing the positions of stars and planets. To decipher the astronomical encodings has not been a trivial task, and not many have attempted to do so. It should be noted that the ancient Indians had a perfect method of time measurement. They recorded the ‘tithis’ (days) according to the nakshatra (star) on which the moon prevailed, the months, the seasons and even the different solstices. By noting a particular arrangement of the astronomical bodies, which occurs once in many thousand years, the dates of the events can be calculated.”

Dr Vartak has taken hundreds of illustrated passages from the epic to establish dates. He writes: “Valmiki records the birth of Rama as Chaitra Shuddha Navami (9th), on Punarvasu Nakshatra and five planets were exalted then; Sun in Mesha up to 10 deg; Mars in Capricorn at 28 deg; Jupiter in Cancer at 5 deg; Venus in Pisces at 27 degrees and Saturn in Libra at 20 degrees. (Bala Kanda 18, Shloka 8.9). December 4, 7323 BCE, therefore, is the date of birth of Rama, when the four planets exalted. Ramayana occurred over 9300 years ago.”

Frankly, only an astrologer or astronomer can make any sense of it. Still, Dr Vartak’s passages illustrate how dating can be done with sufficient information. Events – such as an eclipse, planetary or astral positioning or a comet sighting – mentioned in an epic like the Ramayana may have occurred subsequently or prior. Over a period of say, 20,000 years, a particular type of event could have happened several times.

Stars shift position too vis-a-vis the earth so the star field we see in the night sky is not what the ancients saw 9000 years ago. This is called precession and has to be factored into all calculations. The idea is to back astronomical data with other reference points such as geography (for instance, how many of those eclipses took place over Ayodhya) in order to reduce the probability of error.

King Guha’s descendants

The Daily Pioneer (http://www.dailypioneer.com/todays-newspaper/ramayana-not-a-work-of-fiction.html) reports that an international team of researchers consisting of geneticists, anthropologists, archaeologists and historians have found that Ramayana is a chronicle of events and characters recorded by Sage Valmiki and not a work of fiction.

The team, led by Dr Gyaneshwer Chaubey, a genetics scientist of the Estonian Biocentre in Estonia, included scientists from the Centre for Cellular and Molecular Biology, Hyderabad; Delhi University; Indian Institute of Technology-Kharagpur; and the Institute of Scientific Research on Vedas. It has found that the Bhils, Gonds and the Kols communities are the true descendants of characters featured in Ramayana.

The Kol tribe, found mainly in areas like Mirzapur, Varanasi, Banda and Allahabad in Uttar Pradesh, are the descendants of the Kol mentioned in the Ramayana, the study says. Guha, the Nishad king, who helped Rama cross the Ganga during his journey to the forests, is the ancestor of the present day Kol tribe. “These groups of people carry the basic indigenous genetic traits of India… they are the true descendants of Rama and his contemporaries,” Dr Chaubey said.

Who knows, further research could come up with more surprises. For, unlike the secularists, Macaulayites and communists who are unanimous that Rama never existed, the scientists are not adamant that the date is fixed. Like all good scientists, they just want to continue looking in the hope that one day they’ll nail the truth.

“Where do we go from here?” asks Dr Kalyan Raman, a Chennai-based scientist, and offers the answer: “Trash western Indological work done with motivation and instead rewrite Indian history.” Truth, he says, should be perceived in terms of our national heritage.

Epilogue: Why Hindus love Rama

Unlike Krishna, who had the 16 kalas or qualities that makes one perfect, Rama had mastered only 14 kalas. The prince of Ayodhya is, therefore, imperfect and he shows it on several occasions, most starkly when he asks his wife to undergo a chastity test. Again, when an uncouth citizen questions his queen’s chastity, Rama sends his pregnant wife off to the forest. Krishna would have probably publicly mocked and shamed the citizen instead of banishing his own queen.

Flaws aside, Rama is loved by Indians because he takes sacrifice to a new level. He is a warrior prince who cheerfully gives up the greatest empire of the day so his step mother would not have the slightest reason to complain.He is a husband who lets go his wife because one man – just one –among his millions of subjects objected to her presence in the kingdom.

Looking at things from the perspective of the modern era – where we instinctively genuflect before politicians – Rama was taking it too far, but for the king of Ayodhya his own comforts or that of his family mattered little. True to ancient Hindu laws, he knew the king’s primary duty was to serve his people. So how could he have even one unhappy citizen, howsoever boorish that person may be?

In their moving and brilliant translation of the Ramayana, William Buck and B.A. van Nootena say: “Rama could discover the truth of things, and men resorted to him from all over the earth, as the rivers of the world all flow to the sea. Rama was well-honoured and well-loved. His presence filled the heart.

“Rama was strong enough to support all men, and gentle as the new moon’s beams. Fame and wealth never left him. When he was king men were long in life, and lived surrounded by their children and grandchildren and all their families. The old never had to make funerals for the young. There was rain and fertile earth; indeed, the earth became bountiful.

“Peace and Rama ruled as friends together, and bad things did not happen. Men grew kind and fearless. Everyone had about him a certain air and look of good fortune.

“A king like Rama was never seen before and nowhere remembered from the past in any kingdom, nor did any like him ever follow in the later ages of this world.”

Rakesh is a journalist at New Zealand’s leading media house. He mostly writes on defence and foreign affairs.
His articles have been quoted extensively by universities and in books on diplomacy, counter terrorism, warfare, and development of the global south; and by international defence journals.
Rakesh’s work has been cited by leading think tanks and organisations that include the Naval Postgraduate School, California; US Army War College, Pennsylvania; Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Washington DC; State University of New Jersey; Institute of International and Strategic Relations, Paris; BBC Vietnam; Siberian Federal University, Krasnoyarsk; Centre for Air Power Studies, New Delhi; Institute for Defense Analyses, Virginia; International Center for Not-for-Profit Law, Washington DC; Stimson Centre, Washington DC; Foreign Policy Research Institute, Philadelphia; and Institute for Strategic, Political, Security and Economic Consultancy, Berlin.
His articles have been published by the Centre for Land Warfare Studies, New Delhi; Foundation Institute for Eastern Studies, Warsaw; and the Research Institute for European and American Studies, Greece, among others.
  • MEGHNAD

    Yeah…yes….those bloody western anti human illogical ignorant materialistic motherfucking bunch of bitches never question on their damn christ or undeserved ppl given name of god…..damn it…but when it comes to the real the supernatural, the truth the exact description of god his occurences and all …they start questioning some worst childish type of fucking questions..like”.how can one live more than 500 years??”.(…..which used to very well take place)…they should also ask y allah never allowed his worshippers to see himself….how the damn fuck was christ able to survive all the sufferings he was given(well i m sry if i said something wrong of Christianity as i dont know those damn stuffs)…..these materialistic mindset of even we indians walking on the footprints of the faggot motherfucking westerners has destroyed the atmosphere of pure truth or the level of spiritual evolutions we indians used to have before kali yuga!!!….DAMN IT!!👿

  • mbrij96*

    This is the problem with fucktards like you!. I come here with such a high devotion & interest in Ramayana, hoping to find real proof of it’s existence & in the first half you spew communal hatred & question christianity & islam. The comment section is filled with bhakts. People like you shouldn’t be allowed to get education for you will only spread more poison. You cherry pick proofs & don’t even consider the counter arguments.Then there are atheists who deny all proof that supports any religious event or figure. Why is there only left & right leaning poisonous people?. Why can’t we have people who want to see the truth?

    I personally believe most mythological beings like Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad, etc were real great people but their stories were tainted by dirty minds like yours that they now seem like mythological beings. I bet a few hundred years from now religious fanatics like you will call Gandhi an avatar of some god! or even worse Modi as an avatar of some god lol!

    • MEGHNAD

      Lol bro…u see dat last statement may very well be a true prediction in the coming years….damn it!

  • Sonu Pandey

    मैं विशेषज्ञ तो नहीं हूँ, पर भारतीय कालगणना और युगकालकी मामूली जानकारी रखता हूँ। यहाँ कलियुग 432000 वर्ष का, द्वापर 864000 वर्ष का और इनसे पहले त्रेतायुग 1296000 वर्षों का बताया गया है। रामावतार त्रेतायुग का बताया जाता है, जिसे अगर त्रेतायुग के अंत में भी माना जाए, तो रामायण काल कम से कम 871000 (कलियुग 5000+द्वापर 864000) वर्ष से ज्यादा पुराना होना चाहिए।

    • MEGHNAD

      Sahi bola he aap …exact sahi…

  • sanch

    Dating of the stars is one of the most precise dating one can ever get too because it is the thing that changes the least. Archaeology alone isn’t enough to prove anything. A combination of archaeoastronomy, archaeology , literature and oral records are enough to prove what happened and where it happened. And Ramayana is one epic where everything is mentioned in intricate details so there should be no problem in proving it.

  • 4
    Many Western scholars and Indian scholars with Western mindset tried to fix the age of Srimad Ramayana, to approximately the 5th to 4th century BC. And, they succeeded to some extent in making people believe in the above fictitious theory.

    If we study Srimad Ramayana in depth, we will get a clue to this riddle.

    After conquering Lankhini, the Godess of Lanka, Sri Hanuma enters Lanka and searches for Seeta. Sage Valmiki describes what Sri Hanuma saw, as follows:

    त्रिविष्टप निभम् दिव्यम् दिव्य नाद विनादितम् |
    वाजि हेषित सम्घुष्टम् नादितम् भूषणैः तथा ||

    रथैः यानैः विमानैः च तथा गज हयैः शुभैः |
    वारणैः च चतुः दन्तैः श्वेत अभ्र निचय उपमैः ||

    भूषितम् रुचिर द्वारम् मत्तैः च मृग पक्षिभिः |
    राक्षस अधिपतेः गुप्तम् आविवेश गृहम् कपिः ||

    The great Hanuma entered secretly Ravana’s inner city which was equal to paradise, rendered noisy by neighing of horses and tinkling of ornaments, by chariots, vehicles and aerial-cars and decorated by auspicious elephants and horses and great elephants with four tusks and by birds and animals in heat. It had beautiful entrances and was protected by thousands of rakshasas with great strength.
    (Sundara Kanda 4th Sarga 26 – 28 Slokas)

    उत्तमम् राक्षसावासम् हनुमानवलोकयन् |
    आससादाथ लक्ष्मीवान् राक्षसेन्द्रनिवेशनम् ||

    चतुर् विषाणैर् द्विरदैः त्रिविषाणैः तथैव च |
    परिक्षिप्तम् असम्बाधम् रक्ष्यमाणम् उदायुधैः ||

    Thereafter, Hanuma the glorious one neared and observed the best residence of Rakshasas and the house of Ravana, containing elephants with four tusks and also those with three tusks, those with two tusks and still not crowded. It was protected by soldiers bearing raised weapons.
    (Sundara Kanda 9th Sarga 4 – 5 Slokas)

    Here, Sage Valmiki describes elephants with four tusks and also those with three tusks and those with two tusks. more at http://www.pparihar.com

  • Gurion

    Stupid article. You provide one instance of astrological evidence and you do not elaborate upon it. You rather throw around names, opinions and rhetoric

  • Sushil Bhatnagar

    The bloody Maoists and Communists are slaves of their Western masters licking their feet and soles who have been destroying Hindu culture. They are the worst fascists themselves because they always under the illusion that they alone are right. They thrust their dirty stinking ideologies on others. They are moronic fools who think that only Hindus are communal and all others like Muslims, Christians etc are secular. They and their likes are enemies of 80% Indians, the Hindus. They have been insulting Gods and Goddesses of Hindus hurting their religious faith and feelings and spreading hatred towards Hindus. They have made several Indian Universities as the dens of anti-national activities and are they are solely responsible for unrest
    amongst the youth.

  • Aman

    Although many Indian worship Rama, most have rarely heard about the philosophical discussions of Rama with Yoga Vashista (Brahma Geeta) which is quite profound.

  • BC

    Excellent article, brother. The only thing that I have found inaccurate, was the dating of Ramayana to 9300 BC. I have read some scientific facts supported discussions that have mentioned with astronomy and flora-fauna based proofs that Ramayana dates back to around 1.8 million years ago. For example, four-toothed mastodons were guarding the palace of Ravana. Such beasts were discovered to be existing between 3 million and 1.5 million years ago, based on their fossils.

    Mahabharat, on the other hand is a different story. The submerged city of Dwarka was found to be around 32,000 years old. This was documented on History channel. The great war of Kurukshetra happened well over 5000 years ago.

    • Xena Laminak

      Blavatsky, yes yes people thought she was crazy, referenced texts that did, indeed, argue that the Ramayana was at least a million years old. If one looks at that possibility, then the ‘fantastic” tales all make sense, including mastodons, shape shifters, etc.

    • MEGHNAD

      Bro u gave the exact time….glad someone understands it dat clearly….mahabharat war took place there around 5000 years ago…nd Ramayan 1.8 million years ago…one of the most known beasts were made extinct by indrajith during war…the vanaras…nd the other damn huge beasts too existed…now one cant find the exact palace of raavana….war battle places dating back to millions of years ago like some fucktards wish they find nd prove about the happenings and not happening of ramayana…damn it

  • ChamatkariChor (Baba)

    Not much fact to support comments posted in the article. Only a few cherry-picked examples with lazy analysis. A 3 page article can do much more to convince people of the authenticity of Rama, don’t you think?

  • arunprasad n

    Thanks to Rakesh and India Facts for this wonderful article.

  • NARAYAN RAO

    The opening words :

    Did Rama exist? A billion Hindus believe he did

    make it clear how scientific this article is going to be.

    If Lord Rama did not exist , a billion Hindus would be atheists.

    How gullible can people get that they fall for such nonsense.

    I consider myself a Hindu , but that has absolutely nothing to do with whether Lord Rama existed or not , even though I pray to him.

    Can the author clarify how he came to the conclusion that a billion Hindus believe in the existence of Lord Rama ? Or is billion a synonym for a few ?

    • Krispy K

      Oh fuck off. You are no Hindu and you certainly don’t consider yourself one. Do you think anyone believes lying Commie bastards like you? When did that scumbag Kejriwal issue a diktat to his brainless online drones to pretend to be Hindus?

  • ksi

    Ramayana in Treta Yuga and Treta spans 16Lakh+ years; Since then we had Dwapara ( 8 lakh 64K years), and another 5K+ years since dwapara. Rama setu is 1.6 million yrs old as per science which seems to match our history;

    • ksi

      this is assuming Ramayana is from current chathur yuga

  • Prem Sai

    Nothing that resembles near to proof is provided in this communally tainted article.when u say Valmiki details all that is required for writing an epic,why is that no mention of any rivers,trees or even the mention of coconut in Ramayana.
    Nothing beyond the Satpura rocks and Narmada river has ever mentioned,of course when talking of tribes KOL and Gonds ,Gonds did exist in that areas their leader was one Ravan and he was defeated no doubt but describing him as ruler of modern Sri Lanka is humbug.GRAMMATICALLY idiot Proof literature yes valmiki did his work in anusduph santhas or eight word verses if u remove all that is more than eight matra verses its is a simple work trying to appreciate a prince accepting brahminical Aryan ideology that’s it and no glorification of him anywhere as GODHEAD. GONDS lived in the satpura rocks area and still do,valmiki clearly States Gonfs territory was beyond a big lake and Hanuman SWAM THROUGH THE LAKE.If u read what Rama says about Kaikeyi when he walks the forest is surely not the words of nobility.Pure Valmiki text I’m talking and not glorified Avatar kinda stuff as seems to be the glorified version of much later Kalidas.
    Any one Can produce a lot of things such queries,even the conception of a child without human contact ie Rama
    So stop fanning all sorts of unnecessary controversies ,move on LOVE ALL SERVE ALL.

  • Martin Devadason

    A lovely dream fable!!

    Got a question to you men and women on this forum!!

    What if people like us believe JESUS Christ, the only TRUE GOD created India?
    Psalm 24:1 says “The earth is the Lord’s and all who live in it. For HE founded it upon the seas and established it upon waters”

    Would you guys have trouble accepting me or the fact?

    • Lalitaditya Muktapida

      This is a tough crowd mate. You’ll have better luck selling Jesus in the backwaters of India which is inhabited by simple folk. These guys will swallow you alive without even bothering to bite.

      • Martin Devadason

        God bless you, brother!!

        By the way, it is not possible to sell Jesus. You are utterly mistaken, Oye. He he!! Jesus Christ (oh, how we love him!) is so sweet and very real, that it is only possible to embrace him or walk away from him!

        Let me close this with a song. Before I close, I would like to say this to you. I don’t believe in replying countless times and also getting into a meaningless argument. You are going to believe what you believe unless you are confronted by the TRUTH (Jesus once said, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me”). So I leave it and it is up to you to follow what you like or choose to. So if you don’t see any reply or further queries, please don’t get disappointed.

        Finally, it is time for the old song, a very GREAT OLD CHRISTIAN MELODY:

        “The earth shakes at the sound of JESUS’s voice.
        Nations tremble before Jesus.
        The idols of men are all falling, at the feet of our one and only Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ”. Amen.

        • Lalitaditya Muktapida

          Mate, Virgin birth is something even a child will not believe. Then there is the start of the world in 4000 BC. And the statement that the world was created in 6 days. This is too much for a rational human being. Hell, it is too much to ask of even a child to believe.

  • SK

    Well-written.

    Westerners dedicated their whole life on researching Trojan war based on one small novel. They even dated it based on JUST ONE eclipse ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3345362/Scientists-calculate-the-exact-date-of-the-Trojan-horse-using-eclipse-in-Homer.html ) … But they ignore a plethora of rich scientific evidence (astronomical and otherwise) in our itihasa to belittle the Indic civilisation.

    If this is not racism, then what else !!

  • Praful

    Chaitra Shuddha Navami comes around March/April. Can anyone explain how it could be December 9000 years ago?

  • अहं ब्रह्म अस्मि

    You probably should’ve embedded following video for the benefit of readers – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0gAfNWFi3k

    Here is a link to some of the text on those slides in the video – http://www.vifindia.org/transcriptions-paper/2012/07/03/scientific-dating-of-ancient-events-from-7000-bc-to-2000-bc

    Nonetheless, good job with the piece!

    • Capt.Ajit Vadakayil

      How can you be Aham Brahmasmi when you dont have a 12 strand DNA like me?Change your name you must be funded by Jewish Rothschild.

      • अहं ब्रह्म अस्मि

        If you were truly ‘Brahm’, you wouldn’t be asking such stupid questions, and, would know already.

        • Capt.Ajit Vadakayil

          I am the Great Capt.Ajit Vadakayil with a 12 strand DNA but you have impressed me with your wit even though I dont like anyone whose not Malayali or has not been certified by me as a Nationalist.You North Indian are a Smart Cookie but you still are not the Father of Conspiracy theories and dont have a following of 3360 followers on a blog neither do you have 26 lakh viewers of your profile.I shall now stop this discussion because I realise that I might have bitten more than what I can chew.

  • Ravi Sant

    Excellent article

  • Raghavendra Nagaraja

    The fact that Ramayana and Mahabharata are historical events well established and accepted fact. The controversy exists only on its dates. The title of the article was little misleading, I thought author was giving some new insights to latest discoveries, instead it was all the same political rhetoric. I don’t disagree with author, just that I expected a thorough and detailed work from IndiaFacts on such important matter.

    If we have to comprehensively reject westerners point of view, we need to cultivate through indigenous scholarship .

    • NARAYAN RAO

      You must be quite gullible to expect that anyone can come up with authoritative ‘facts’ on this subject.

      You must be quite innocent to expect that Indiafacts deals in facts !

      • Krispy K

        Brainless Commie fuckwits like you take gullibility to cosmic levels. And we all know your definition of “facts”, i.e. whatever bullshit helps you and your kind further your agenda.

  • Prati Hara
  • Denny crane

    I did not like the tone of this article, it is far too combative. While anti-hindu pseudo histories deserve to be challenged. This article seems outright ridiculous. As for Astronomical dating of the Ramayana a few different conflicting dates have been arrived at by researchers. Astronomical data must be supported by other forms of evidence in order to be tenable. I think trying to prove sri Rama or sri Krishna is a wholly futile effort. It is hard to find conclusive evidence for the existence of personalities from the remote past. From a religious point of view it is far more relevant to use these itihasas as a moral compass. From a historical point of view it is near impossible to prove the existence of individuals from a pre literate era. While using the itihasas as evidence we must remembered that long before they were written down they were transmitted as an oral tradition and numerous accretions may have been added along with the passage of time.

    • Krispy K

      Disagree. Astronomical indicators are pretty robust, and one can retrospectively calculate the positions of astronomical bodies to a high degree of accuracy over long periods of time. On what basis do you claim that they require “other forms of evidence to be tenable”?

      As for the claim that it’s “hard to find conclusive evidence for the existence of personalities”, the fact is that for some no amount of evidence will be “conclusive” enough, short of building a time machine and taking them back there. And even then they’ll claim it’s some kind of deception. So there’s no point in trying to convince such people.

      Incidentally, while it is common sense that “accretions” may have been added over the centuries, the ancients are thought to have developed specific techniques for remembering passages word-for-word as part of an oral tradition, specifically in order to transmit them accurately. This makes sense for a culture for whom oral tradition is central. So perhaps the changes are not as significant as one might think.

    • ChamatkariChor (Baba)

      Sensible comment. The article is as xenophobic in tone as it accuses others of being. It is short on fact and long on rhetoric.

  • Sujata Srinath

    Valmiki’s Ramayana was idiot-proof. You say this in your article. Valmiki’s style of composing his verses was also very difficult to imitate. There is a school of thought that propounds that all the negatives of Ramayana – Vali’s killing as being unjust, Sita’s agni pariksha to prove her chastity, and particularly Sita’s banishment – were all introduced much later by latter-day poets with mischievous intent. Rama was called Maryarda Purushottama! It was convenient to target him to attack devout Hindus who had got disconnected from reading the Itihasas themselves. They were easily confused when confronted with these three blemishes continuously and in such a sustained manner that youngsters now a days know only about these three events and the rest of Ramayana pales to insignificance in contrast.

    • Denny crane

      Well some scholars are of the opinion that the Ramayana began with the Ayodhya kanda and ended with the Yuddha Kanda with the the Bala Kanda and Uttara Kanda being later additions.

      • Sujata Srinath

        Yes, I have come across that too. So there you have it…we need to set up indigenous research programs to look into our Itihasas with a view to remove/correct the ‘inaccuracies’ that may have crept in.

        • Denny crane

          I don’t think we should try to correct the ‘inaccuracies’. Unlike western religious our tradition is not based on commandments issued by god. Rather it is an evolving tradition. While it is perfectly valid to analyze these itihasas correcting them would be useless. There are many wonderful values and stories that add to these epics their charm. Rather what is required is a nuanced reading of the scriptures. It is necessary that we increase our understanding of traditional texts, increased fluency among the public in Sanskrit and other classical literature would also go a long way in furthering public understanding. Let me end with an example, if we view Rama’s treatment of sita in the Uttara Kanda as a later intervention is the extrapolation of the meeting between Rama and Shabari an even later tradition too?

          • ChamatkariChor (Baba)

            Virtually every religious book has ‘evolved’ and been reinterpreted. Not just the verses of the Ramayana. Much was dependent on word of mouth and memory. Every verbal transfer could potentially have added and removed material from what was heard from someone else.

    • MK

      read “studies in ramayana” by K S Ramaswami Sastri

  • Srinivas
  • disqus_m1254

    Hi, I liked the core content of article. But the thing is you start of with so much “they are this, they are that..” blah blah, reader will lose interest. Scientific discovery is welcome. The steps taken need be mentioned. The persons and institutions involved should be mentioned. The current status should be mentioned.

    For arguing against marxist discourse, you can write a seperate essay “why they are wrong”

    • Santosh Gairola

      Agreed!
      Marxist are indeed, well, Marxists.
      While writing paper on Evolution theory, one doesn’t and doesn’t need to talk about Creationism. And as you wrote, can write separate article to debunk that.

  • NARAYAN MAO

    Ridiculous communal article, which I didn’t even read because it makes my eyes sting. Who uses the positions of stars to date stuff? That isn’t scientific at all, anyone can move the stars anywhere they want to make something look old or new or real or fake. The proper scientific way of determining history is to combine your dreams, with your political desires, and decide: does this support my agenda? If yes, then it’s history, if not, then it’s myth. This is the time-tested scientific method employed by all real scientists and historians at real world-class research institutions like JNU. Read and learn you ignorant fascists!

    So this is clearly all nonsense unless stated otherwise by a representative of the Congress Party, or Srimati Srimati 1008 Romila Thaparji, or someone like Kanchan Ilaiah, or Comrade Sitaram Yechury, or even His Planetary Royal Highness, Chairman of the Galaxy, and Dear Leader of the Known Universe Sri Sri 1008 Arvind Kejriwal. Once they declare this is all true then it will become true. Until then you fascists should stick to eating Muslims and women, which everyone knows you all do unless stated otherwise by the aforementioned eminent individuals. I’m here to learn you stinking fascists, don’t abuse me.

    • Vivek Yadav

      LOL.. I misunderstood you for a sec.

    • Denny crane

      You seem to be completely ignorant of astronomy

      • NARAYAN MAO

        What is this “astronomy” you’re blabbering about, you Muslim-eating fascist? Can you prrrroooooove that there really is such a thing as “astronomy”, or is it just in your imagination? Or did Modi cook it up in some minority-oppressing lab in Gujarat somewhere? Provide prrooof fascist, PRRROOOOF! Links, references, etc. If they are from JNU or somewhere similar, I will change my mind. I’m here to learn, don’t abuse me.

        • Denny crane

          Lol

      • Lalitaditya Muktapida

        Don’t you understand satire and sarcasm?

        • Denny crane

          My mistake. Didn’t read his comment fully. Sri Narayan Mao is always sarcastic 😉

    • Rama

      “Ridiculous communal article, which I didn’t even read”

      Ridiculous on your part on commenting on an article which you have not read in the first place.

    • Slasher

      Nice tongue in cheek reply to the article. Most commenters below seem to have missed your joke/ sarcasm.

      Anyway, let me commend the writer for being so bold. However, I am disappointed that he has not done his homework.

      There is an excellent blogger by the name Ajit Vadakayil who has already made 99% of the research necessary to prove the date for when Rama must have been born, etc.

      You just need to google Vadakayil Ramayana in order to know the research.

      Good luck next time.

      • Capt.Ajit Vadakayil

        Yes my minion spread the Gospel of Truth of this father of 12 strand DNA.Tell the whole world as to why I have over 3000 followers and over 26 lakh viewers.What do these people know about the Historicity of Rama I know it coz of my 12 strand DNA I was able to go back 11000 years back in time and view the happenings with my Drishti.This is possible only if google Ajit Vadakayil on Ramayana and you make a fist and punch your screen hard to the point it breaks.I also want to tell you that your doing a commendable job promoting my work and dont believe any of those who have contrary views to mine because all of them are co-conspirators of Jewish Zionist Rothschild.

        • Slasher

          I am no minion and I am glad a troll like you with Ajit’s handle is doing a great job getting everyone curious about his blog. Fantastic! Keep up your trolling Moron!!

      • Lalitaditya Muktapida

        This Vadakayil fellow makes me nervous. He may not be the best source out there

        • Capt.Ajit Vadakayil

          I am the best and only source so what if I have not done any serious tapascharyas or written books and articles instead always spoke of conspiracy theories does not mean my blog is not filled with information. Trust me I am the “Father of Moronsmriti” but Malhotra doesn’t reveal my name.Its unfortunate that me and my minions turn a puddle into a dangerous quicksand and make life difficult for fellow confused Hindus by promoting Zionist Jewish Rothschild theories and ppl like you want to remove the confusion. How could you?dont you want Hindus to remain confused don’t you want the secularists to use my works as a stick to beat up all Hindus with.I am sure you too are a Jewish Rothschild stooge thats why you are diverting Hindus from the real issues that I work so hard to make them focus on.

          • Lalitaditya Muktapida

            Captain Sir, with all due respect, your work does not exactly meet the highest standards of Academic rigor. The citations barely exist. Now if you don’t mind, some of your minions threw rotten fruit at my face yesterday when I was on a date embarrassing me thoroughly. This, dear captain, is just not done. Request you to rein in your minions as rotten fruit throwing is not an accepted technique in debate.

          • Capt.Ajit Vadakayil

            Lalitaditya your absolutely right I create all kinds of conspiracy theories which can never meet Academic rigor and hence I have never published a book or an article even on serious pro Hindu/Dharmik platforms.People who read my blogs are generally the “Naya Naya Launda jumped the Modi Hindutva Bandwagon” types also I do have the oldies who want some false sense of confused Chauvinistic Nationalistic pride mixed with a dose of Gossip.So I just cater to my target audience and as far as rotten fruits being thrown at you it must be the Marathi RSS person Jewish Rothschild Chitpawan Brahmin Jew Nathu-ravan Daitya-say,he is a deranged individual and actually he has gone rogue.You know my Kerala Malayali RSS Vadakayilians never do such things I know it coz my father had a heart to heart and told me so and hence your supposed to belive it blindly without questiong or asking for authentic sources.My real minions are people like Slasher coz everywhere they go they talk about my works and after every post/comment they come to me and I scratch their belly and pet them I feed them Dog chow.I am sorry for the fruit throwing I will do one thing this time I will ask them to throw eggs I am sure u like eggs.Lalitaditya being the only Hindu King to go overseas and conquer needs his daily protein so I will make sure my minions throw eggs at you.Thanks
            Regards

            CAPT AJIT VADAKAYIL

        • Slasher

          Lalitaditya:
          Use your brains. I am not into conspiracy theories either. What Ajit writes when he talks Science is perfectly worth pondering and researching on your own. His views are not for the squeamish. Why should you bother about those? he says so himself.

          I think the troll with Ajit’s handle here is doing a better job than I can in making sure everyone at least gets a little curiosity and googles his name.

          Just read about the Vedas and Vedic cosmology that he has written. It is a tragedy that no one in India has done such lateral thinking and followed it up with scientific enquiry and research. we have to blame our historians and archaeologists for that.

          Keep an open mind and read his posts.

          • Capt.Ajit Vadakayil

            Awesome way to go your analysis is on the money.All the problems are cause of Jewish Rothschild Zionist
            For eg:
            Dandruff-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Male alopecia-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Violent Diarrhoea-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Ticks n lice-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Heavy rain in Tamil Nadu-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Toilet flush not working-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Set top box not working-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Constipation-Zionist Jewish Rothschild
            Mahagathbandhan winning-Zionist Jewish Rothschild

          • Slasher

            You seem to be a Chrislamist troll – what is your problem? You sound like a jilted lover! The Captain has written 920 posts – of which so many have brought to light several amazing insights into how we think about our ancient practices and traditions within Hinduism. You may agree or disagree with him but you can stop reading his blog posts. That is your choice.

            The fact that you are trolling me tells me something is mentally wrong with you. Good luck getting it cured.

          • Capt.Ajit Vadakayil

            All I can say is that your a staunch Vadakayilian and its good that people cant change your views.I am very proud of you, your staunchness is similar to Muslims and their love for Muhammad.I hope you carry on with it.

          • Lalitaditya Muktapida

            What Bothers me about Ajit is that everything seems to be Rothschild’s fault. Hell, apparently Rothschild had a hand in the loot of Tipu’s treasure in 1799. But this is unacceptable because Rothschild was only allowed to come out the Jewish Ghetto after the Napoleonic conquest of Prussia around 1805. You see why I have such a problem with him?

            And he really went overboard declaring Gandhi a Rothschild Agent. Now I am no Gandhi fan, referring to him as a Duratma. But, that being said, Extraordinary statements like that require Extraordinary proof. Not a long line of what is at best circumstantial evidence. Circumstantial evidence does not constitute proof.

    • Infinite Wisdom

      Some may be misled but the wiser ones will figure out what you are saying right away. Thank you for a very interesting way to put down the Nehru Gandhi communal (they call themselves secular but neutral people know them as sick sickular) philosophy and make fun of Nehru Gandhi chamchas like Romila Thapar, a mentally sick woman who got much publicity during the Nehru Gandhi rule as Hitler’s chamchas did during the Nazi regime.

    • srikrishna sadula

      some time back i was asking you to provide proved proofs of Aryan invasion theory by your holy crooks. whole JNU went dumb with marx and mccaulay..

      • NARAYAN MAO

        White people say that Aryans existed and they invaded India. What more proof do you need, fascist? If this is not true, it is up to YOU to prrrrroooove it. Once sanctioned by someone at JNU I will change my mind; until then, you are just a superstitious Muslim-eater.

        • srikrishna sadula

          haha…if whites say do you believe? isn’t it funny? we need proofs for that. simply saying in air wont serve the purpose. Dwaraka, Ayodhya excavations by archaeologists is proving so much data. JNU or any other universities can challenge that data. But remember the moment you said “white people said” it shows all JNU theories are based on somebody said so. The more world evolves the more truth comes out, so far lied becomes intolerant. Thats natural.

          • NARAYAN MAO

            You are very intolerant and fascist.

          • srikrishna sadula

            ok baby, u get me the proofs for Aryan Invasion Theory

          • NARAYAN MAO

            Read Max Muller. He is white, therefore what he says is true.

          • srikrishna sadula

            i reiterate, the more world evolves the more truth comes out, the more advance we make, earlier notions will change.. same as case with maxmuller or any WHITE… For example Maxmuller disagreed with Darwin, but eventually darwin proved to be more relevant. And It is a known fact that most of the original proponents of AIT were not historians or archaeologists but had missionary and political axe to grind.

          • NARAYAN MAO

            Blah blah blah. Come back when Srimati Srimati 1008 Romila Thaparji changes her mind, then I will change mine. Until then, go and eat some Muslims.

          • srikrishna sadula

            good, so you or she don’t have the proofs for AIT. then good bye !!
            P.S: Vegans don’t eat animals 🙂

          • NARAYAN MAO

            I don’t have to provide prrrroooof for anything fascist, YOU do. I’m waiting, don’t abuse me.

          • MK

            hey good 4 nothing idiot SICKULARIST if u dont understand and dont want to comment just dont

            U lie with ur COMMUNIST STORY GARBAGE WITH URSELF.

          • srikrishna sadula
    • Lalitaditya Muktapida

      Absolutely Brilliant satire. Please tell me your twitter account so I can follow you

  • Dr. MS

    Kindly ignore the idiot below using my name and photo. That is my photo of my backyard in Florida, and by taking it without my permission or my knowledge he is violating my property and my privacy.

    Now to the article. Thanks for the article. I say this misunderstanding of Ramayan and Mahabharath has to do with our own historians and cultural experts. They have been far too lazy, patriarchal and selective in their analysis. They have not figured out how to parse Ramayan and Mahabharath scientifically while using modern technology.

    For example, there was an excellent effort to look at the flora and fauna mentioned in Ramayana, and figure where some of the events might have occurred. It is obvious that Rama traveled extensively, and his kingdom must have been huge. We know, from some of the forest dweller accounts, the Aranya Khandyam, that Hanuman and his monkey-man clan, Homo Erectus, was somewhere in the Vindhya mountain ranges. One also suspects that Hanuman was fair skinned, with the possibility that some fair skinned Homo Sapiens might have emerged from this clan’s evolution and then migrated out North to become “Caucasian Homo Sapiens” of the Caucasus…and later this group diversified to become different Anglo groups, including some that became European Red Necks (the colonizing kind). But when Rama sets out on his forest exploration he goes through terrain much like what we see in Burma, parts of Cambodia, Thailand, etc. It is possible that Rama, Seetha and Lakshman traveled extensively in Southeast Asia before landing in Southern India and meeting up with Hanuman who helps him find the bridge to Lanka (then only called Lankaa, or Lankkai). We need to use cultural, social and anthropological investigations to find out…not just Hindu experts.

    How many of our PhDs in anthropology and cultural studies investigate Ramayan to figure out the geological, topographical and ecological descriptions and figure out where it might be?

    It is amazing how many brilliant doctoral students in the US are involved in looking at primitive hieroglyphics of Mayas and Aztecs to figure out what they say about life at a specific time for a specific group of people. That is the way we must investigate Ramayan and Mahabhrath.

    My mother used to tell me about all these wonderful flowers mentioned in these texts, and I am so sad that so many have become extinct.

    Anyway, there needs to be a careful “study of the flora and fauna mentioned in great details to find out where these events might have occurred.

    • NARAYAN MAO

      What is this, fascist? You are talking to yourself? Is this your attempt at satirising satire itself? Like everything else, you are rubbish at it. Stick to eating muslims, it’s all you’re good for.

      I’m here to teach, don’t abuse me.

    • Slasher

      Dr. MS
      Our historians and archaeologists as you rightly point out have been worthless.

      But there are some very interesting revelations about Hinduism and our Vedas by a fantastic blogger that I have discovered recently.

      Punch into Google:
      “Ajit Vadakayil Vedas”

      You may ask Ajit WHO?

      I said the same thing a month ago. But after reading his blogs I was stunned.

      He is India’s most prolific blogger and most read on the planet.

      He has 310m (million) page views and writes with an uncanny perception. Ignore his sailor’s language however…

  • Dr. MS

    This is Dot.M5 acting like Dr.MS. He, he, he…

    Why this obsession with Ramayana and old history…when all kinds of ugly stuff is going on right in front of us? Is it that pretentious mediocre men love to sit and philosophize because they are too impotent to do anything concrete and constructive about current problems? Patriarchy does turn many men into lazy, stupid, mediocre, incompetent, maybe even corrupt thuggish, impotent men.

    For example, do we have to worry about weather geo-engineering going badly, or being manipulated beyond certain limits, causing torrential rain that do not just provide necessary moisture and water for dried up areas (in certain parts of northern, central and southern India)? Beyond a limit this kind of incessant rain can cause “flooding, epidemics, infections, overflow of the sewer system and erosion”…negating the good effects of sufficient rain, water and moisture in our farms, dams, rivers, lakes, soil and underground. The only two countries with this geo-engineering technology are Israel and the US. If US is not involved, because it does not care two hoots about Northeast India, with a bunch of retards and illiterate forest people (who have lived peacefully but stupidly for thousands of years) who are converting though, then who is involved, and why? Is it excessive geo-engineering, is it an experiment, is it an experiment gone wrong, is it manipulation for good or bad or both? What is going on?

    We need water: sufficient amount of clean healthy water. But is this good amount of water, or is it a slow form of flooding, erosion and killing the economy?

    Why are so many Indians retarded? He, he, he…

    And Dr.MS is a FemiNazi…He, he, he…