Stormtroopers At Shani Shingnapur
The famous British mountaineer George Mallory is supposed to have replied the question “why did you want to climb Mt Everest?” with a cryptic “because it’s there”. Unfortunately the attitude that symbolized human spirit and never say die attitude in a mountaineer is quickly becoming bane of the civilised society in the 21st century. The group of women set to “storm” (helicopter on standby) the Shani Shingnapur temple are the latest example of this excessive behaviour.
Before I being discussing the issue at hand, I am going to give a large concession to the feminists agitating against the temple administration (and public at large). The said concession being, there are really parts of the temple that women are forbidden to enter, and men are. If my twitter feed is anything to go by, even that part if murky but since I feel it has no effect on the outcome of my arguments, I am going to get it out of the way. See, I am a reasonable guy.
Having given that concession, there is no disputing that the Stormtrooper (hehe.. go on! sue me) ladies are making this attempt today due to the following factors.
- Attacking Hindu religion is a sure fire ticket to fame considering the largely leftist media’s hostile attitude towards the Hindus, especially since Mr Modi took office in 2014.
- They are sure of the support of law and order since the state in question is ruled by BJP, a law and order party.
- None of them have to fear for blowbacks of this misadventure since they are offending people from the most peaceful religion
This stunt has that “heads I win, tails you lose “feel to it, since if the women are successful in storming the temple, they (and their backers, make no mistake about it, they have backers whose only interest is humiliating Hindus) would have the satisfaction of having humiliated Hindus once more. If they are not successful, and indeed stopped by police from entering the temple, they can go on perpetuating the right wing thugs”/patriarchy/ Police state narrative that their other NGO/Left wing buddies can use when it suits them. Like Gary Sinise tells Nick Cage towards the end of ‘Snake Eyes” – its Snake eyes kiddo, the house wins.”
Now let’s discuss why this stunt has neither religious nor moral standing.
The first argument extended by these Stormtroopers is “equality before law” which sounds very pragmatic and obvious (and hence supported by a few centre of rightists ) but has a fundamental flaw when you examine it up close. The “equality before law” argument implies, that religion is subjugated to law, at all times. Let me repeat the last three words. At all times. Now when a tenet of religion results in harm to an individual or a group, or if it keeps an opportunity of advancement away from the aforementioned group or individual then by all means law should step in. We are not after all a theocratic state that throws gay people from towers or allow pregnant women to die rather than give them an abortion. We are liberated and we must feel proud of it.
However, even the biggest supporter of this protest will struggle to explain to me what danger this temple entry restriction places women into. Or what opportunities (other than the one to offer prayers, an opportunity that has no socio-economic value in its strictest sense) it denies them. All it does is to place a restriction on them, in a place outside their own homes. To deny religion this freedom to place restrictions on individuals or groups in such limited manners is effectively subjugating entire religion to law. This kind of legal authoritarianism is a hallmark of regimes like China (where they forbade Muslims from fasting and men from growing beards). I am not sure I want to live in a police state like this.
The second argument is of course the slippery slope argument, that says if you allow this then what is to stop religions from forbidding entries to women from all temples or placing restrictions based on caste/religion etc. Unfortunately this is only an academic argument. It is sort of like saying if you allow gay people to marry each other, it may lead to a man marrying his dog next. While taking a decision based on a future risk, one must make a realistic assessment about how clear and present the risk is. In a country of literally millions of temples if there are fewer than a hundred (I am being generous here, I only know two such temples) places with such restrictions and no new place with similar restriction has come up in say last two hundred years or so, then the slippery slope argument is purely hypothetical and hence does not merit consideration.
It is also important to separate these nihilistic Stormtroopers from the leaders of past who agitated against unfair restrictions placed by traditions. Like (most famous case from my state) the ‘chavdar tale Satyagraha ‘(also known as Mahad Satyagraha) by Dr. B. R Ambedkar. Two important distinctions needed to be made here.
- In Chavdar Tale, the commodity being denied; viz water, is a life necessity. Keeping a class of people away from it based on their birth was not just by any means.
- This restriction placed on the Dalits was not acceptable to all Dalits. Hence thousands of people gathered on 20th March 1927 with Dr Ambedkar at Mahad.
Contrast this with the case in hand. The commodity being denied (if it is indeed being denied) is entry in a temple. Come on folks, some sense of perspective please. Not entering the temple is not going to kill you. All that is at risk is your own ego.
Equally importantly, the restriction put on women is not only acceptable but actively endorsed by a majority of women. These women are natives of the place as well as highly educated, abroad living urban women whose egos are not so fragile that any restriction placed by religion is immediately seen as a sign of good ol’ patriarchy at work. Again my faith in religion’s absoluteness forbids me from making this suggestion but if indeed a referendum is held on this issue, I am confident that more women will vote against it.
Also not to put too fine a point to it, folks who drank water from the Mahad tank kept drawing from it for the rest of their lives, since it was an essential commodity for them. The Stormtroopers in this case will come, breach centuries old tradition and go on fighting other causes ( an agitation against armpit shaving perhaps ) while the priests who have cared for the temple for generations will be left to care for it once again, only this time with the knowledge that the temple they have devoted their entire life to has accorded them no privileges to practice religion as they see fit. If there is anything more sickening and more disgusting than abusing a person of his faith and then make him go on living like nothing has happened, I don’t know what it is. We have all heard of tales of Hindu women force fed beef during partition riots. This is the less violent version of it.
The last (and most laughable) argument extended by these Stormtroopers (when cornered with the question about atrocities against women in other religion) is “I am going to care for my religion, why should I worry about other religion?”.
Well ladies, when Falvia Agnes quoted in an interview with Avni Choksi “But after independence, the same women realised that it is important to bring changes for Hindu women as they lagged behind their Muslim and Christian counterparts” she has also put forth the argument why it is perfectly ok for Christian or Muslim women’s right advocates to agitate on behalf of Hindu women.
And since none of you protested against Flavia’s stance then (this interview was published in last August) I am just going to assume that this argument was acceptable to you. Now why you have reversed this argument is what is tripping me.
Again (I am being generous here I already told you) even if you decide to accept this argument for some reason, let me ask you this- is this the biggest problem Hindu women are facing today? A 17 year old girl in Bihar committed suicide yesterday because she did not have a toilet inside her house. An estimated 65 % women folks do not have access to feminine hygiene products, 1 out of 4 girls from rural India drops out of high-school after attaining puberty because she does not have adequate protection during her menses. An estimated million women have gone to jail or have faced harassment at the hands of police due to the rampant misuse of the 498a section of the IPC and you went with entry into temple? Good call Ladies.
Stripped of all its civil rights and gender equality cloak, this movement can only have two implications. One will show these Stormtroopers in an unfavourable light. Other will show them as active evil. I am leaving the choice to readers.
- This movement is all about a few women with lot of time and nuisance power on their hands trying to earn some quick fame. In a TRP/RT hungry world making nuisance of yourself is the quickest road to fame. Arvind Kejriwal is a living example of this. These women are not fighting on behalf of women. If they were, you would have seen them helping their fellow women out during the Chennai floods or handing out clothes and food to wives of drought afflicted farmers. But let’s face it – where are you likelier to have a television camera following you? Much easier to call those who actually help women during these calamities as “khaki chaddis” and pretend as if what you are fighting for really makes any difference in anybody’s life other than your own.
- This movement is a not so covert attack on Hindutva by other religious forces with help of communists. This attack has been many years coming. The construct of the attack can be broadly broken in the following elements. I) Years of careful narrative taught at our universities showing Hindutva as a slave to evil (and actively violent ) Brahminism thus creating a divide among Hindus 2) Equally careful indoctrination, primarily led by power drunk journalists that termed, on one hand any call for Muslims to ban burqa or accept uniform civil code a sign of Hindus aggression, while making it perfectly acceptable on the other hand for Hindu women to consider Muslim or Christian women crusading against Hindu traditions primarily as women and not as people from other religion. This has led to the situation where even a balanced thinker like Shri Mohanji Bhagwat can be questioned for his remarks over Mother Teresa and women activists like Flavia Agnes can get away making the remarks I mentioned earlier. 3) Identifying, nurturing and funding publicity hungry good for nothings like these Stormtroopers and siccing them. As I mentioned earlier, the damage would be done by the time today’s sun sets no matter what. These women will get the credit of being path breaking revolutionaries or martyrs (not in the literal sense, don’t get your small clothes in a bunch already).
So why fight them?
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Because it matters, not only to peace loving Hindus, but to women of all religions. Today’s public discourse has short memory and even shorter bandwidth. Each cause gets its limited bandwidth, and if women’s rights bandwidth gets used by Stormtroopers planning to jump on top of temples, then girls committing suicide due to lack of sanitation tend to get neglected. And we can’t allow that to happen.
And also it matters because we are proud to be member of a peace loving religion and when peace loving, law abiding citizens like you and me and the towns-folks of Shani Shingnapur get bullied out of the social discourse by these pantywaist fascists who will not listen to reason, the fanatics amongst us tell us “ok guys you had your turn at the bat and you failed to protect us. Now step aside and let our clubs and swords do the talking “(again don’t take it literal, you miserable, no good bunch of liberal word Nazis).
When America allowed the left bullies to stifle all those sane rational folks who wanted to recognize the threat of Islamic extremism, the solution to come out of conservative woodwork was “lets’ ban all Muslims”. One thing regressive lefties do not own up to is that they are the main reason why an almost dead extreme wing right has risen again.
Oh and ladies, that helicopter you have on standby today? The women stranded in Chennai floods less than two months back could have really used that, you know what I am saying?
A good commentary here: http://yugaparivartan.com/2016/01/27/shabrimala-to-shani-temple-tale-of-anti-hindu-feminists/
What helicopter are you talking about in your last sentence? How does it being on standby now somehow affect Chennai flood victims 2 months after the water receded?
Badly written, and badly edited.
Please help by sending the correctly edited version of the Article to Indiafacts. Shooting arm-chair comments won’t make your opinion good either.
* Blank Page *.
Done. Edited out all the nonsense.
They have paid editors to do this. Should they not be doing the editing? Or, do you expect readers to be doing their job? Maybe in your oligarchical world we should be paying employers for their demanding work. Oh…that happens in India a bit much, does it not?
You are talking as if you have employed these editors and paying them so and they must meet your vague demand “Badly edited”, without any specific pointers or corrections as a reader. Might be you have donated millions of dollars or so to this website/editors, I don’t know. Readership comes with a responsibility particularly when they enjoy free services. It is a two a street!
Also, I think these newspapers always struggle for money. As we can see most of the writers have a day job and they do this as a service. i know that the standards are not always up, but also the information that these newspapers find, 1. is supported by many citations. 2. is not easy to find out, especially when one is not always well paid or paid at all in some cases. Grateful to all those who are doing this service. even when it is not the best.
In stead of preaching to me , vyaghanam, to do this or do that…why don’t you do it? You Indian men act like children and then want women to be perpetual mothers fixing your stupidity, laziness and arrogant patriarchy. But if I were a goree you would not talk or write to me this way, but drink my urine and make me a Pratana Mantree. You Hindu guys are your worst enemy.
This movement is all about a few women with lot of time and nuisance power on their hands trying to earn some quick fame. In a TRP/RT hungry world making nuisance of yourself is the quickest road to fame. Arvind Kejriwal is a living example of this. These women are not fighting on behalf of women. If they were, you would have seen them helping their fellow women out during the Chennai floods or handing out clothes and food to wives of drought afflicted farmers. But let’s face it – where are you likelier to have a television camera following you? Much easier to call those who actually help women during these calamities as “khaki chaddis” and pretend as if what you are fighting for really makes any difference in anybody’s life other than your own.
That’s like blaming a scientist for being a bad cook. You can’t keep pulling rules out of your backsides. Which law says a Feminist also has to be a flood relief activist?
Thankfully, the CM of Maharashtra tweeted: “Indian culture and Hindu religion gives women
the right to pray. A change in yesterday’s traditions is our culture.
Discrimination in praying is not in our culture. The temple authorities
should resolve the issue through a dialogue.”
you need to learn much before you can comment. all you talk about are opinions without the base knowledge. First I thought of attaching an article, but i know you won’t read and you come here only to argue. You do not read or understand the context. The same as feminists–bringing foreign lenses to look at local issues.
good bye.
Luckily, the world is moving in a particular direction. Someday, you will have a very uncomfortable meeting with your HR and realize it can cost you to hold outdated opinions. Companies that pay the best even in India are typically HQed in the developed world, and will apply a so called “foreign lens”.
hmmm, see, if your focus is only on a job, you will always remain an employee……:) it takes courage to question things that bring you security but are not necessarily supporting your value system. It has been a tradition for people like you to call ‘ideals’ as ‘outdated opinions.’ serves your value system….which is very short sighted.
Wait. Feminists are the ones questioning traditions that claims to provide them “security”. So that makes them great entrepreneurs also no?
we have security…feminists originated in countries where women had to fight for ‘voting rights’ Indian women got it when the country became independent. check it out from your favourite source…wiki…
as i said, not interested in carrying on a conversation with you, who knows little and talks just for the sake. nor am I interested in convincing you.
Umm.. I checked. And you seem to be wrong again. The Women’s India Association (WIA) that first started the women’s suffrage movement in 1918 was formed by Annie Besant, Dorothy Jinrajadasa and Margaret Cousins. All of who were western women’s rights activists (aka feminists).
“Way back in 1921, Madras was the first legislature in British India to pass the women’s suffrage resolution by a considerable majority” : http://goo.gl/h8AEGl
The Indian Constitution upheld continuity of what was already in existence during pre-independence provincial elections. And of course, my favorite, a Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_suffrage#India
You are hardly convincing 🙂 given you are so wrong and so often !
See, the problem with being a pure social scientist (seriously a wrong concept) is that you twist ideas and issues according to what you want to know. what was the point of suffrage during the british times? we were still fighting the british. that movement was against the british and their regressive ways. Indian women even had the right to property which was not ever available in Europe. It was the british who changed it, as they turned a gift giving ceremony into dowry. but again, do your own research not sharing any links with you.
You want to believe I know nothing, absolutely fine, for someone who has to google ‘desh kala patra’ –i know for sure you are not a hindu. Its sanskrit. Basic wisdom.
As for wrong????? you did not even understand the context!! Suffrage during british times has nothing to do with women and their place in India. How was I wrong? When India became India if we did not approve of gender equality–we could have stopped women from voting. It was not a continuation of what the british started (since it was not a democracy when the british ruled India, no one had the right to vote), India in providing the voting rights at independence was following her own culture—a culture where major departments of life were always given to GODDESSES. And so many ministers and representatives were women. Check out how long it was before Europe started offering that to their women.
Suffrage during british times –WHOEVER WORKED ON IT–has nothing to do with women’s place in India. It has to do with British and their regressive ways. There are enough stories that show how women were always a highly respected part in Indian society and often esteemed even higher than men. Do your own research.
😀 😀 Right. All good came only from our own culture. All bad was forced upon us. Such a simple world.
All good came only from our own culture. All bad was forced upon us. Such a simple world.–
mmmmm pretty much!! :)!! Except that ‘simple world’ is upside down in your head. And you are hell bent on digging negative and shaming Indian civilisation. So desperate are you that you pretend to be a Hindu…
Like I have many times earlier, the world is many shades of colors. Right side up or upside down, such simpler black and white explanations can only exist in brainwashed minds.
If you want to stop negative stuff from coming up, you should stop making fake claims. I find it insulting to my country that we have to make up “facts”. Though I still don’t see how accepting the fact that we chose to have a democratic constitution that included universal suffrage is now “insulting” just because it originated from the west. So many in our neighborhood could not even do that properly. Anyway, how many “Hindu” democratic countries existed in pre-British India?
I am not a Hindu anymore. “Freethinker” is a term I better relate to these days. So happy to change my opinions once a mercury vortex powered vimana knocks out a Paki military facility with a brahmastra.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.
Like I have many times earlier, the world is many shades of colors. Right side up or upside down, such simpler black and white explanations can only exist in brainwashed minds.
You do understand sarcasm? !! If from our previous conversations you did not understand that I was playing on ‘your words’ and also wanted to not continue to talking to you—then really you are a bigger ‘unintelligent’ person than I thought earlier.
I seriously have no interest in conversing with you. I also read your earlier comment where you called me a ‘right-winger puppy’, or ‘I have had my fun’. There is no serious learning or intention to learn in a person like that.
And know –there is nothing stronger than kindness. If I am sticking to a civil conversation, it is because I am a hindu, was raised a hindu even though for a long time went through atheism, and even then I found no anger or dismissing of who I was, unlike churches that simply do not accept you. So there, a thousand pranams to a hindu mind.
Now to your points.
There were some issues in every civilization. But ours is much wider and accepting of differences than have been other civilizations. Therefore imposing the random ideas of west that has created much negativity the world over, is too narrow a lens to apply to us, more so if we ignore the chaos that the british brought and the lies that we were taught ‘they brought us development.’ You have not watched the videos or read the articles that I sent, you read not from an open mind or a free thinker that your call yourself –you have set your mind and are looking to put down anything you consider hindu. Nothing free about it. You are stuck in your worldview. Check out the rate of crime, unwed mothers, children without fathers, one women with five children from four different men, depression rates wherever this so called development has gone…then talk to me about development. And btw, THESE FACTS ARE NOT MADE UP!!
If you want to stop negative stuff from coming up, you should stop making fake claims. I find it insulting to my country that we have to make up “facts”.
Your country? The one you are hell bent on insulting and not acknowledge its wisdom? Starting from arts to cuisine to literature, to inner sciences—no other country matches it. You are just a sepoy—
Now please tell me these made up facts, oh so you talk about the pushpak vimana….that is not that important. Here is what I give you, try it out, it takes years. Meditation, sadhna, yoga, and many other rajasic and sattvic practices—it makes you a free thinker, it allows you have new thoughts it gives you new wisdom. Ayurveda, Yoga are an evidence.
Those are the facts!! Ghee can withstand much higher heat and does not go rancid —those are the facts and therefore the use of ghee in our sweets, which is better for stomach—THOSE ARE THE FACTS—that came out of our understanding of nature, human body and social construction. Ghee comes from India—it’s a manifestation of its understanding of various products that can be useful for body.
Watching violent films affects our brain structure, those are the facts. It was incorporated in our wisdom thousands of years ago and therefore a focus on going within.
As for you being a hindu—you NEVER WERE….
Free thinker? A joke? You are stuck in a construct that requires a proof—-when a child is born it’s a proof that an egg was fertilized by a sperm. But it tells you nothing about anything else….hindu civilization is about ‘creating minds where we will act wisely and create a civilized soceity’ so we knew that marriage was dharmic way to make a society move forward. For children to know parents and grandparents and uncles and aunties.
So we created a society —that has been the strongest in the world. And then there are the likes of you—who know little and brag about being a ‘free thinker’ without knowing that the wisdom allowed in Hinduism can only come to a free mind. Check out what the Greeks did to those who thought differently.
Though I still don’t see how accepting the fact that we chose to have a democratic constitution that included universal suffrage is now “insulting” just because it originated from the west. So many in our neighborhood could not even do the at properly. Anyway, how many “Hindu” democratic countries existed in pre-British India?
How many democracies anyway before colonial times? Instances of earliest democracy were found in India,—and if you do not know, you should research. From your favourite source—
India[edit]
Another claim for early democratic institutions comes from the independent “republics” of India, sanghas and ganas, which existed as early as the 6th century B.C. and persisted in some areas until the 4th century.
I am not a Hindu anymore. “Freethinker” is a term I better relate to these days. So happy to change my opinions once a mercury vortex powered vimana knocks out a Paki military facility with a brahmastra.
I don’t think you need a mercury vortex powered vimana for this one, just look at the history we needed much little to defeat Pakistanis. So rest–
Done with you Sir/madam—-
before you can criticize Hinduism from just watching TV or googling issues, sit down for years with an open mind like a real free thinker, read the texts and then do your own research before you simply say ‘that’s not true.
Leave the freethinking bits to Hindus, who even accept Jesus as a part of dashavatar….and get down to some tapasya before you open your mouth again.
I am being polite, but seriously NO interest in dealing with someone who is behaving like an eighth grader—with an idea of questioning every thing in the class without having read the chapters. So won’t respond after this. You do your own research.
OK. Now you are just rambling.
I never called you any names. I do that only to users who begin their conversation with insults. So it was this uncle: https://goo.gl/YJLp29, not you.
Interestingly, even Islam accepts Jesus as one of the prophets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam. Nice how similar all religions are. So sweet na?
Nice how similar all religions are. So sweet na?
I was wrong, you do not talk like an eighth grader. That is how 4th graders talk, while wagging their thumb at others implying they are the winners in a conversation or a debate…
OK. Now you are just rambling.
Nach na jaane aagan teda—-much information and wisdom in there. Deliberately spread out. The wise should understand.
I never called you any names. I do that only to users who begin their conversation with insults. So it was this uncle: https://goo.gl/YJLp29, not you.
You are ‘having your fun’ by lying constantly that you were born a hindu. You are also mocking this debate by constantly wanting to be right. Much opinion, little knowledge. By disrespecting the oldest civilisation that has been open, and knowing fully well that I am proud to be a hindu, you are mocking me, by constantly implying there is nothing great about hinduism. even though you have enough proof otherwise.
Interestingly, even Islam accepts Jesus as one of the prophets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/….
You are really funny. You are well aware of Islam, as it is close to your heart (You are basically–HINDUPHOBIC–I have picked several things from our conversations–don’t want to say anything since there are many others like you, who leave clues…don’t want to help them out 🙂
Islam works different in words and practice. Basically Islam lacks IMAN. Check out the history of countries where muslims and christians live together…take your pick they are all over the world. The reason it has not happened in India is because the population of Xtians is still small, and because both of them are together so far against hinduism. but you know….how they live together…
From your favourite source…: Currently there are no official churches in Saudi Arabia of any Christian denomination.[3]
OOh, such love they have for each other…..!!!
Nice how similar all religions are. So sweet na?
and even funnier is your desire to have the last word.
Religions: christianity, Islam and Judaism have much in common YOU ARE RIGHT THERE. More with Christianity and Islam.
Dharma traditions: Hinduism the mother of all, Sikhism, Jainism, and Buddhism should not be confused with being ‘religions’
Sweet na? funny how little you know…..
Ah. You too do not get sarcasm 🙂
It does not matter to me what you think of my “Hindu”-ness. So skipping past all that. All religions are bullshit. Why exactly are you expecting me to defend Islam or Christianity?
So who was the first elected head of state/government in these pre-British Indian democracies?
still stuck in terms given to you by the colonisers……who was the one elected in greek times? Since everyone says greeks brought us democracy…..religions are crap, absolutely, dharma is an altogether different thing….
Ironical, given we are having the entire conversation in a language left to us by colonists. 🙂 Sure, I can pepper it with few Sanskrit words from time to time to make it non-colonial.
Greek? The women’s activists who first led the right to vote movement in India were British/Irish.
Ironical, given we are having the entire conversation in a language left to us by colonists. 🙂
you are really not that up on understanding the subtlety of an argument.
1. our previous governments have betrayed us. in more than one ways.
2. interestingly, many people including myself have freed ourselves of the colonial lens while using the oppressor’s language. Similar to what freedom fighters like Gandhi did. You are not only still wearing foreign lenses but are unaware of it.
Sure, I can pepper it with few Sanskrit words from time to time to make it non-colonial.
3. how about we end this argument by saying let us support bringing Sanskrit back? If you oppose this then you are akin to a person who ‘pushes the one trying to stand up down, and then mocks him for not being one on his own feet.
Greek? The women’s activists who first led the right to vote movement in India were British/Irish.
The above question is seriously not in the context and some of if has been addressed before. Now, not trying to put you down, nor am joking when I say, you ability to argue is not very strong. you are all over the place, and when you cannot understand connections you call it rambling.
So what exactly is your argument now about women’s right to vote?
You had said this: “.feminists originated in countries where women had to fight for ‘voting rights’ Indian women got it when the country became independent. check it out from your favourite source…wiki…”
And it turned out a women’s rights body formed by westerners instituted voting rights for women in India. Sure, to our country’s credit it seemed to have met with very little opposition. But your original assumption that we got it only at independence and with no western influence was wrong.
listen, i cannot go over the the same things over and over again. I have tried to finish this several times. You are not learning and despite the fact that you call yourself a free thinker, you have decided that ‘India is not that great a civilisation, hinduism should be shot down, almost if not all good came from outside.’ I am sorry you have such an inferiority complex. But seriously this comes from neither reading nor having the patience to understand. spend a few years in mediation, sadhana and learning something. the answers will come from within. until you try that technically you are not correct in putting hinduism down where:
Reasoning (Yukti) has been a phenomenal asset for the Indian civilization, yet it has never been worshipped or put on a holy pedestal. Experience (Anubhava) has always superseded reason as far as its proximity to the truth is concerned.
your methodology is wrong.
Seriously sorry that you are so inflicted with an inferiority complex about being an Indian. Good bye.
What is the point going over and over your opinions formed with no factual basis?
I am proud of my country, and I find it insulting that people feel the need to make up stuff about India. It definitely has a heritage to be proud of and is a shining beacon of democracy in a crazy neighborhood. But none of that needs to be stolen from someone else or come from hiding our problems. We need to grow up and stop trying to hide behind Bharat Mata’s pallu whining about patriotism when facts are not in our favor. So I am not the one with the complex.
Reasoning (Yukti) is the only thing that should be worshipped.
reasoning is a starting point, anubhava is the evidence. reasoning can go in loops beyond a point. experience is the result of going through the laboratory.
patriotism is never what dharma proposes. in this case it seems so, because there is no other country that is hindu or even pagan majority anymore…..and hence the need to protect dharma and india to be a dharmic country. any one worth their salt will not be opposed to dharma!!
you do have the desire to have the last word. because you think that means you are right.
here is the analysis of what you have done in the last few days of our interaction. stood in your own box, continued to attack without understanding, interacted with the idea of defeating.
complex? hardly, rigid is more like it!!
Ah, Dharma. That conveniently vague concept that gets dragged in when actual facts prove your opinions wrong. The Constitution is Dharma in today’s times, and its purva paksha is done in Parliament.
How can you “anubhava” something that happened before your time?
Ah, Dharma. That conveniently vague concept that gets dragged in when actual facts prove your opinions wrong. The Constitution is Dharma in today’s times, and its purva paksha is done in Parliament.
How can you “anubhava” something that happened before your time?
For whoever reads this far. This is not for Samrat Bharat, but a simple analysis.
1. SB is not, and never was a Hindu. His aim has been to look down, on Hinduism. even when pointed to evidence or theories and concepts.
2. He has a deep need to have the last word, because in his ‘young’ (polite word) mind if he says the last words he has won.
3. He stands in a box and even when his argument falls flat he will declare himself the winner in an argument, like a child does.
4. If he understood anything then he would know that Constitution is only a manifestation of Dharma and not the other way around. our present constitution is not completely Dharmic.
5. He uses words like purva paksha without understanding them. Purva paksha is not done in a place—it is done with adhyan—study—which requires tapas and understanding.
6. It is likely that he will write again, because he has to write the last words. But he will never be able to define let alone understand Dharma, and will always call it ‘conveniently vague’. Because truly naach na jaane (in this case naach applies to reasoning, debate and understanding of subtleties in an arugment) aangan tera
7. For anubhava before your time question is irrelevant—but the answers lie in sitting still. the same way rishis responded to Alexandar who stood with arms in his hands wearing a military uniform—and was disarmed by the responses that the rishis gave him.
😀 😀 Ah, and when Dharma fails, beg & whine to fellow righties and form a lynch mob.
To anyone who reads all this way down, first – go get a life 😀
Don’t think the rest of the world has the same thinking as the one supported by you. You are also hell bent on undermining the wisdom inherent in Hinduism and your aim it to shoot it down with your arguments. killing a culture is killing a soul of a country.
Get a life, a very american way of dusting things off—can also be ‘wow, you must be really interested in learning about the debate, they are reading for the sake of understanding various arguments. probably a better life than scouring the net to only shut down ideas that are different from our own–which reeks of ‘not wanting to learn and broaden.’
Which rest of the world? You do know that Hindus are a minority in the world right (only 1.1 billion of the 7.4 billion humans)? You are the one undermining whatever you are trying to defend by
bringing wrong facts and inconsistent arguments to the discussion.
Which American way ? The one your role model Rajiv Malhotra chose when he “renounced and abjured all allegiance to any foreign state” like India? Then US Constitution is also the only dharmic one I assume, since he swore to “bear true faith and allegiance to the same”? From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_%28United_States%29
great you mentioned that hindus are a minority in the world. So when they talk about HIndus being a majority in india, talk about the global world and support hindus as a minority in the world and a thought process that should be supported like ‘all minorities’ in india asking for favours. hindus should be given special status since the religions of the book are a majority and quite offensive.
RM is but one guide. American constitution dharmic?? they enslaved generations of africans. and killed native americans. their beginnings have been killings. but since they looted and stole the land and colonised and worked on the english network laid out in the world–they succeeded economically for about a century–today they are in trouble. check out their debt being more than their worth. Hinduism considers time as in eras…..looking at things in terms of decades and centuries is too narrow.
RM did something that not many americans do—-sold off his multimillion business for one dollar to the employees who worked for it. Match that!! Leaving your country to follow svadharama is not wrong. but living in your country and constantly shutting its ideology down without understanding or reading is shameful….and shows inferiority complex
oh after this, you can consider yourself the winner—if I do not respond. because you response over the last conversations– your argument is getting feeble and feeble using words you do not understand. Dharma does not fail, it transforms….from inside….do a bit of research you will learn. but ofcourse when your goal is to put hinduism down, why would you learn about its wisdom??? FREE THINKER THAT YOU ARE…..?? (nooooot!!)
So.. you have no facts to bring, but don’t want to admit that you believed something blindly you heard on right wing internet echo chamber?
Simple question – which businesses did RM sell for $1?
simple answer—learn to labor…..I KNOW….you do some research. Oh sorry its not available on wiki right? too bad…
😀 😀 I researched. Except for right wing bloggers repeating it, there is no mention of this $1 sale even by RM himself anywhere. So another myth busted ! You are welcome 🙂
because you cannot find anything after spending 20 minutes on the internet, it is a myth….good conclusion…..serves your ego…
No point wasting half a lifetime doing “adhyayan” on something that is fake no? 😀 😀
You could prove me wrong in a minute. But you cannot, because with each of your dodgy responses I am more and more convinced I am right 😀 😀
Keep saying what you want,– I KNOW….no need to prove myself right or prove you wrong. Have learnt your level of research in the last conversations. The fact is that you are a lazy researcher to the extent that if you do not find what you are looking for, you assume you are right. I have links….but not this time. Adhyan, is mine, and I stand in a place for not giving you any more information without research. I decided that a few posts ago. Such ego, you have that you want to not only ‘feel’ but ‘write’ that you are ‘right’. As if this whole argument was about winning—that is the people who will never understand Dharma…
😀 :D. Ah back to name calling, now that you are proven wrong 🙂
You got “shoonya” buddy. Just pretending like you have any fact is pathetic.
🙂 smile of contentment!! sorry its wisdom!! take care…
Ah, the convenient inconsistencies again. So the once glorious, wise Hinduism now wants to beg for favors from its “Abrahmic” superiors?
My using a small phrase is “american way” but RM’s swearing allegiance to the US Constitution (that once allowed slavery, atrocities on aborigines etc) is Dharmic behavior?
So which businesses did he “sell” exactly? And if he got only $1 for all that he had, what exactly did he invest in the Infinity Foundation then? You being so well read and all, I am sure you can solve my doubt about this inconsistency also quickly.
the convenient inconsistencies again.
So which businesses did he “sell” exactly? And if he got only $1 for all that he had, what exactly did he invest in the Infinity Foundation then?
do your own research
😀 😀 😀 You don’t know ! So much for “anubhava”. You just believed blindly something RM’s PR machine put out there.
I am not the Dharmic purva paksha capable Intellectual Kshatriya. You tell me. Which businesses did he sell? Who valuated them to be anything more than $1?
do your own research
I did mine. work some. do not look for easy answers. Working will give you ‘anubhava’!!
do your own research.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glocalization
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=glocalization
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_k7PlV6Gq4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc_Z8GUHsF4
http://deshgujarat.com/2011/10/08/non-veg-giant-kfcs-first-outlet-in-gujarat-faces-strong-opposition/
Glocalization (a portmanteau of globalization and localization) is the adaptation of international products around the particularities of a local culture in which they are sold.
The term first appeared in a late 1980s publication of the Harvard Business Review.According to sociologist Roland Robertson, who is credited with popularizing the term, glocalization primarily encompasses how regional tendencies intersect with the proliferation of global corporations. At a 1997 conference on “Globalization and Indigenous Culture,” Robertson stated that glocalization “means the simultaneity — the co-presence — of both universalizing and particularizing tendencies.”
The worldwide spread of McDonald’s restaurants is a commonly cited example of glocalization, especially since the restaurant’s menu is often customized to suit local tastes. Regardless of industry, glocalization broadly involves the altering of an overarching brand or product so as to better appeal to customers within a specified country or region. This phenomenon is the relative inverse of Americanization and the suppressing of local preferences in favor of providing goods and media whose content has been dictated by foreign entities. Glocalization can also involve the use of culturally friendly media to encourage the acceptance of foreign products among a local audience.
My perspective is Glocalization should be or can be applicable to everything including HR Policies for better Market expansion or else it will be looked upon as an Eurocentric Hegemonic models which are enforced upon the locals.For instance Asian companies tend to be a lot more flexible to the local sentiments and many of their employees learn the local languages and customs and act accordingly on the contrary certain American Companies are rigid and find it difficult to compete against their Asian counterparts due to lack of customization features.
In USA for instance many Americans(Christians/Atheists/Secularists) dont like to eat Kosher meat and hence nonkosher meat is served to those customers but here in India we have such a Muhammadian Hegemony that even in flights the meat served is only HALAL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E6029miw-8
If you know the meaning of AHIMSA it means minimum violence but here in HALAL the method adopted is more violent since it stops the flow of blood and causes immense pain and agony as the creature gasps for every breathe and thus in turn increasing our Bad Karma and leading to ADHARMA.Also while slaughtering they are supposed to say “BISMILLAH” (In the name of Allah) and as you know they say that “THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH” so if you believe that well then your also a ADHARMI but ask a Muslim to eat BALI mutton or chicken and see how they react.
One thing I would like to point out and may be a future documentary that the Indiafacts team can do with regards to Shani Shingnapur is that its the only place on earth where there are no locks on doors and the interesting part is that the crime rate is the least in the whole world in Shani Shingnapur and a comparative analysis with other so called “DEVELOPED NATIONS” should speak volumes of what this Sacred place stands for.
Everytime Hindu Dharma is portrayed as Caste,Cow,Curry,Misogyny and never are the good aspects of Sanatan Dharma ever brought to light and here these WESTERN UNIVERSALISTS selectively targeted Shani Shingnapur without highlighting that there are NO DOWRY DEATHS here,there isn’t any CRIME that is commited against WOMAN FOLKS.
SHANI DEV is responsible for not letting any crime happen against anyone in Shingnapur and if this reduces the load on Govt Machinery we choose to worship Our Devta as we have for the next FOUR YUGAS.
My Question to the FEMINIST BRIGADE
15212 Temples were demolished and over 2000 were made into Mosques if I were to ask for a PRAAN PRATISHTHANAM of VARAHI DEVI in those places by a Mahila Pujari and The Management and Trust run only by women for women and Hindu women can worship on one side within the mosques while on the other side Muslim women can do their Ibadat somewhat similar to AL-AQSA mosque model.Would these FEMINISTS support me?
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples1/
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/htemples2/
Indiafacts—an idea worth exploring!! ‘may be a future documentary that the Indiafacts team can do with regards to Shani Shingnapur is that its the only place on earth where there are no locks on doors and the interesting part is that the crime rate is the least in the whole world in Shani Shingnapur and a comparative analysis with other so called “DEVELOPED NATIONS” should speak volumes of what this Sacred place stands for’
You know I had this desire for sometime to make such a documentary and visit Shani Shingnapur and I dunno whether its a sixth sense or something but suddenly I see these Feminazis target that one place where the SACRED actually not only reduces the crime rate but also the burden on Police and other Govt Machinery there by helping in Economic aspects too.SRG and others have done work on how temples were destroyed and how innocent Hindus were killed and K.S.Lal mentions about Hindus being sold off as Slaves but there should be a complete analysis of how it impacted us Politically, Economically, Socially, Technologically, Environmentally, Legally and Psychologically.For instance these all Parda systems and Misogyny is gift of ABRAHAMS children be it ISLAM or the Patriarchal society(LAWS) which are a gift of XTIANITY.Hindu women roamed around freely but noone was raped this Rape culture is the all because of ISLAM.The most heinous acts of crime are commited by MUSLIMS not just in this country but all across the world but noone wants to pin point it to the Elephant in the room ie ISLAMIC MIND Leads to criminal behaviour.
Ever think of ‘crowdsourcing’ or even contacting some filmmakers who believe in this cause? crowdsourcing has helped make many movies. not really based on hinduism but this movie was made by two americans after they read about ‘art village’ in rushdie’s book –I read about these stories in newspapers. not sure what happened to the locality…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKFceQisD8
Think about crowdsourcing. I think that is svadharma, all of us doing what we are good at…and what calls us.
Naah, not going to happen. Nut cases like SD are more busy ensuring Modi loses the next election by pissing off all other voters except semi literate North Indian upper caste men.
remember you complained about someone cutting in while you and i were exchanging notes? Even when he was commenting on a side note. first learn to model the behaviour that you expect—this conversation is not directed towards you. practice first before you point fingers at others—-
I never complained 🙂
you certainly did not welcome it!! and used some harsh words.
https://www.kickstarter.com/discover/places/new-delhi-in
search for movies, if you are interested,–it will guide you towards movies made by crowd funding. I think if you are interested and feel so strongly make a film. especially since these crazy people keep raising alarm, ….its important that someone brings out the truth.
Bravo absofuckinlutely chrislamic asshats have always been jealous of Vedic Dharma the only true faith in the world. Their useless dead guys & dumb books are no match for omniscient omnipotent omnipresent Hindu Gods & Godesses. They know it & they know that we know it, they hate us for it.
“Adarsh liberals” are trying to identify issues that will divide Hindus ( and help Congress,Communists) win back political power.MSM being hand maiden of these anti Hindu forces is helping by giving them the platform.Btw this ” platform ” is shrinking by the day.Just check their dwindling TRPs.Hindus should not worry too much and stay their course.These jokers will soon run out of ideas and steam.
Mayuresh is spot-on, when he says the agitators have lot of time.
Yes, also they do know Hindu traditions are soft targets..
But his arguments stating. “Age old Traditions” do trouble me.
Substitute ladies with dalits, substitute 2016 with 1916…… See the argument…. Dalits can’t enter temples… Age old Traditions.. It is not life-threatening……Effort could have been better mobilised to use in the recent most tragedy….
Painful.
It took 2-3 centuries of work by raja ram mohan roy, dayananda saraswati, swami Vivekananda, swami narayana guru to clear the traditions…. To put spirit of Hinduism back in reckoning.
Since there is no single authority who can be pleaded to discuss the traditions of the temple, ladies had to mobilize masses…. Until there are crowds to shout, cameras too will not turn up.. Effort is not recognized…
What if there could be a discourse around this question?
Recall Dr madhuri purandare & her ilk winning the battle for ladies to chant Veda?
Why not this event lead to pro-active step from all temples… mentioning the significance, meaning, rituals of individual temples?
That discourse could well lead to cleaning the air?
Also some fact-publishing regards to the timelines from when the customs started, reasons for which it was started could all be put up…
What better place than India facts….?
To start with, shabarimale temple (named after the lady who waited for aeons, just for one view of Lord Rama) can mention in simple terms.
Only people who practice celibacy for days together, who walk with sacred offerings overhead can offer salute to this idol.
When chatter exceeds prayers, it’s best to let facts ring bells..
As per History, Dalits were disallowed to enter temples in 1900s ie blanket ban. But All temples allow women except 3-4, so its a case of few exceptions, out of over 33000+ known popular temples in India. Whataboutery has no relevance here, remember, other temples never followed Sabarimala or Singnapur and rejected entry for women.
Agree about ill treatment to dalits bhy caste Hindus.But is it not on wane? Education, urbanisation and adult franchise are at work.Thousands of temples allow entry to dalits and women with few exceptions to prove the rule.Adarsh liberals are not ready to see these positives.It is their problems.Hindus are moving on despite of these cranks.
Let them do what they want. If our belief is strong enough, the Lord Shani will not pardon them. They will have to suffer the fruits of their sins. The question that remains is that the faith of the believers should be immovable. How honest the attempt of the devotees or the believers is to meddle in the task which actually belongs to Lord Shani? Doesn’t it point to the fragility of the faith and believers of the pious ones as they come to stop others when Lord Shani himself is silent?
http://mahamatters.com/bhau-torsekars-blog-shanis-eminence-and-womens-rights/?share=facebook&nb=1
http://mahamatters.com/bhau-torsekars-blog-shanis-eminence-and-womens-rights/
Who was paying for that helicopter and bus ?
Why left liberals and seculars responsible for rise of Hindutva. New generation of Hindutva no depend on writings of Savarkar alone.
http://mahamatters.com/new-hindutva-is-not-dependent-on-savarkar-alone/
how leftist, secular missed target while criricizing hindutva icon Savarkar.
http://mahamatters.com/seculars-miss-the-target-in-criticizing-savarkar/
why seculars are failed to what is happening in india and the world
http://mahamatters.com/with-no-agenda-of-their-own-seculars-have-become-reactionary/
Its just an oil ritual that has always been traditionally done by males.. Women only don’t get to do the ritual.. They are permitted in the temple.. unnecessary fuss. I have been there many times with my mother as she is a devotee. Some rituals are made specifically for men and many specifically for women… and they have very valid reasons for that…. Fake women rights activists doing publicity stunt.. At the same time the temple guys are fools too..I mean just let them enter dammit ! They let the whole thing escalate into such a drama!!!!!!!!!! Now Commies and Sickulars have got more ammo
‘Fake women rights activists doing publicity stunt’. They understand little but want to bring down everything that has stability, tradition, sacred
The above article reads like one written by some outsider, who is trying to be “fair” and “just” but says nothing to the purpose, and nothing that any heathen can identify himself* by. (* In which term I implicitly include ‘herself’).
In contrast, here follows a far better defence of heathenism:
http://www.haindavakeralam.com/sabarimala-temple-hk21869
Sabarimala Temple in the ‘Secular’ World
Author: Anjali George on January 28, 2016
Salient points are that:
– The author, Anjali, is female. Hence her stating the heathen Hindu views can’t be dismissed as “patriarchal”.
– Unlike new agey and Bauddhicised “Hindu” post-heathens doing the rounds on the web quoting unscholars, Anjali doesn’t fall into the trap of Bauddhicisation/christianisation(/islamisation) and clearly denies the Bauddicising and christianising that’s been attempted on Ayyappa. (The islamic encroachments are also easily shown to be false and likewise very recent, but that can be dealt with as and when the occasion arises.)
– Anjali gets further points for citing the well known part of the ancient Ayyappa narrative of how the Goddess trapped in the MahishI, upon release/salvation by Bhagavaan shrI Ayyappa, asked him to marry her and how he explained that this cannot be until certain conditions are met. There was a time when Hindus knew Ayyappa’s charithra well, but nowadays with most visible persons on the web having become post-heathens, such only know the recently invented Bauddhicising speculations, propagated as they are by new-ageists on the web.
– Most importantly, the author of the HaindavaKeralam article draws attention to how Ayyappa is a brahmachari only in this main temple of his whereas he’s married in another of his major temples, etc. This is similar to how Murugan is only a brahmachAri in one of his main (similarly Kundalini-related) temples in Tamil Nadu, while at the same time he is likewise manifested in married (grihastha) state in another of his main temples there etc.
To add to Anjali’s statements of fact:
– Tamil Nadu has countless temples that either contain Dharmashaastaa/Ayyappa/Aiyanaar sannidhis or that are dedicated to him as the principal deity. None of those I know of exclude women of any specific age. So, as Anjali stressed repeatedly, Ayyappa is not remotely misogynist.
– It is exclusively the monotheists, the communists (many of whom in India are monotheists anyway, using communism just as a cover), the cryptomonotheists playacting at being “Hindu”, and other such anti-heathen terrorists who are aiming in concert to storm/attack the sanctity of the tradition concerning Shani Bhagavaan in Maharashtra and similarly the sanctity of the ritual tradition concerning Ayyappa at Sabarimalai in Kerala, in order to weaken and destroy Hindu heathenism.
– There is _no_ Hindu heathen woman who has any issues with the restrictions placed on women of a certain age entering Sabarimalai temple. Hindu heathen women never have any issues since we know for a fact it has nothing to do with gender discrimination–as Anjali also noted: there are many Hindu heathen temples and rites that are exclusive to women, and in which men cannot partake. Heathen Hindu men do not agitate about “male rights” on such matters either, as they likewise understand that it has nothing to do with discrimination against their gender.
– There exist countless Hindu heathen women in the south who adore Sri Ayyappa Swami and who with an entirely good will (and with understanding and absolutely no resentment) uphold the tradition that only at a certain age can they visit him at Sabarimalai. This is no problem because we have other Dharmashasta temples where we can get darshana of him (often with his wives), besides being able to worship Ayyappa-Dharmashaastaa at home (where he is ever with his wives the Lakshmi-swaroopa Poorna Devi and Shakti-swaroopa-Pushkala Devi).
– Further proof of Ayyappa not representing any misogyny whatsoever is in how his traditional heathen Hindu male bhaktas (by which I obviously don’t mean the bauddhicised kind that pay lipservice to Ayyappa on the internet) innately treat Hindu women as their equals without thinking about it. (This is actually true for all the heathen Hindu males I know. It is equally true that no heathen Hindu female human is ever against the males of her heathen kind, since heathens always identify with their heathen population, never with something as random and irrelevant as gender.)
– Heathen Hindu women are the sole female representatives of those who care about Hindu heathenism, including Ayyappa at Sabarimalai temple.
All those who present any other opinions–anti-traditional, subversive, or outright missionary–are revealed to be monotheists and missionaries by this very feature (by definition), and thus their anti-Hindu opinions on heathen Hindu matters–such as about the supreme Vedic God Ayyappa–should be dismissed in toto as those of Hindu-baiting monotheists/missionaries.
– It is necessary to repeat the fact that monotheists, especially the christians, are entirely behind all such agitation–as is also apparent from Anjali’s article which briefly revisits the matter of christians’ most infamous attack against the Sabareeshwara (they practically attempt one yearly)–and that their latest cryptomonotheist attack is part of their implementation of “Project Thessalonika” against Hindu heathenism in India.
– Of note is that if the agitation against Shaneeshwara ever officially used the terminology of “storming” the Shani temple, then this is more proof of christianity orchestrating the agitation from behind the scenes: not a few years ago, a christian evangelist in Tamil Nadu similarly threatened to literally “storm” KapAleeshwara temple too. It is christian terrorist vocabulary: storming Hindu temples for the artifice for aggression that is jesus, but where possible under the cover of secular-sounding excuses like “women’s rights”.
Enough is enough. How much should heathens stand for before they will start fighting back in this existential war, one where the monotheists are threatening Hindu heathenism’s very existence. As concerns this latest agitation, which as usual is not secular despite trying to give that appearance but is in fact entirely cryptomonotheist, all Hindu heathen women should rise up and overthrow the monotheist terrorists of any gender before letting these anywhere near our Gods and temples. If the monotheists will not leave Hindu heathenism alone hereafter, but insist on continuing to conspire against our heathen Gods, temples and traditions, then Hindu heathen women should agitate that the monotheists must all–without exception–be booted out from Bharatam. Pakistan was partitioned for the monotheists on the insistence of both christians and muslims who were aiming to usurp both ancient Hindu territory and population. The monotheists are nothing more than a canker in Bharatam’s midst, no need to pretend otherwise and ignore the true nature of the ‘elephant’ in the living room. If the monotheists do not instantly start minding their own business–and they repeatedly show they will not, but instead insist on scheming for the downfall of heathenism–then they should leave for the monotheist republic of Pakistan/Bangladesh (or ISIS land, which the monotheists have also ethnically cleansed for their mono-‘god’) and should cease to fester and conspire against heathens & heathenism in Bharatam.